In today’s episode we’re talking about sleepovers - if our kids are ready, if we’re ready, and some advice for how to approach the first sleepovers.

During this episode we’ll discuss:

• Sleepovers when we were young

• Our kids’ current sleepover experience

• Whether our oldest have been asking about sleepovers

• Sleepover advice from the Alliance for Children

• Any concerns or requirements we have for sleepovers

• Thoughts on co-ed sleepovers

• Thoughts on sleepover during COVID

If you like what you heard, please consider subscribing, writing a review, and sharing the podcast on social media.

Resources:

• Tent Sleepovers: The Extravagant Party Kids Are Craving in 2021

• Safe sleepovers

Transcript

[music]

Dave: In today's episode, we're talking about sleepovers. If our kids are ready, if we're ready, and some of the advice for how to approach the first sleepovers. Hey everyone, welcome to the Papa est Fatigué podcast, the podcast for dads by dads. With back to school and full swing. We started thinking about getting back into the school groove, and so we're talking about one of those classic kids activities, the sleepover. First, here's my deal. I'm Dave. I have an eight year old daughter and a five year old son.

Jim: I'm Jim. I've got two daughters, five and eight.

Dave: In doing the research for this podcast, I stumbled upon an article that talked about a party planning company that does sleepovers and it's crazy. They set up individual tents for the kids and these elaborate outdoor movie theaters, and some of these clients are paying like $10,000 for a sleepover, which is absolutely insane. I certainly never experienced anything like that as a kid, but Jim, just to get us started, I was wondering if sleepovers were a big thing when you were a child?

Jim: Yes, they were I don't remember-- I actually, I remember my brother having sleepovers not my sister so much, but I certainly remember my own. I remember my first sleepover. I was I couldn't handle it. It was probably 8:30, nine o'clock and I asked for my mom and my dad to come pick me up, but that's all I remember. and then I was doing sleepovers ever since then.

I would think just about probably starting in maybe fourth, fifth grade, maybe we'd probably have every Friday and Saturday night or at least one of those at nights I'd sleep over at a friend's house and then in summertime, and we'd do a lot of sleepovers. I'd sleep over, at my friend's house. Mostly just for convenience sake, that we were out all day ,playing or we were going to get up early and going on a bike ride or something like that.

It was less about the sleepover event and more of just like we're doing so much that I'm just going to crash here today. I did a lot of it. I have really fond memories of that.

Dave: Nice. When I was younger, my best friend lived about 30 minutes away, but I used to go over there pretty often and part of that was because his mom was a teacher at our school, so it was pretty easy on a Friday, she'd just grab both of us, and we'd drive back to his house, and I remember a couple of things. I learned that I got carsick in her Mercedes when I puked reading a comic book and we're on the freeway.

That was a whole thing, and I remember another time we were playing, he had like a, it wasn't really man cave at that point, but it was a a basement, and we were playing with the strobe light with his sister who was probably, I don't know, five years older, and I ran right into a support column, and that was the last time we ever really played with the strobe light, but it was a lot of fun up until I ran right into that beam, and so that was mostly like when I was younger in middle school.

I actually do remember doing a lot of sleepovers when I was older too. I guess what was a little bit interesting was my circle of friends. I went to a small school, and so my circle of friends, there were four of us, because our graduating class was 22. It was a very small school, but my closest friends were girls.

We would do sleepovers, it would be me and then three girls, and we actually did a lot of that probably from 10th grade on. I remember there were about three houses that we would rotate through with the four of us, and it was pretty frequent. When you were doing sleepovers, were you also doing them up through high school?

Jim: Yes, up through high school. Sure.

Dave: Yes, because I was like, is that a normal thing that, like he keeps going? Yes, apparently it is a normal thing. What has your kids sleepover experience been to date?

Jim: The school that our daughters went to together, we, your daughter still is, it had this program where they do a school trip, I think every year, and then call them culminating in a multi week trip I think. When they get a little bit older and so in kindergarten, there's overnight trip at a local ranch, and I remember thinking like, "Wow, that's pretty--" It was outside the envelope for both my wife and I, we weren't doing sleepovers in kindergarten or school trips, overnight school trips in kindergarten, but I was really excited for it.

That it was a great way, I felt like it was a great way to gain some independence and some confidence early on, and you start doing that stuff at an early age, then it's just not weird. You just do it early on and then that's what you do. You do overnights without mom and dad and that's fine but. Their mom, my wife ended up going as a chaperone, she didn't quite have that independent experience, but it was an overnight with their school friends, and I'm sure that was fun at night.

Then just recently, both of our girls the five year old and the eight year old had an overnight at grandma's house, and it was they had been talking about it for a long time, and then we'd start to plan it and we'd get close to it and they'd get get cold feet, but this time they were ready to go and, and they were, it was a huge competence boost for them.

They both, in the day or two afterwards, they were walking a couple inches taller and seemed just much more mature and much more confident. That gives me confidence that they're ready for a sleepover and I could imagine that for the older one, a sleepover just is like an extended play date, and I could see how she'd be ready for that.

Dave: Yes, the funny thing about that that sleepover, the field trip you were talking about. I remember, so the class size, I think was about 22 and they were looking for parent chaperones. Right, and they only needed like seven, and I believe in a class of 22, they said that they had 44 parent volunteers for that school when they were only looking for seven. I was in school one day. I just dropped my daughter off, and there was this line of parents and I'm like, "What's going on?"

They're like, "We're in line to get our background check," and I was, "Oh, I guess we missed it," because, we were like, "Well is she ready for it? It's just kindergarten. It would be good for my wife to go." We were like, "Well, somehow we missed the selection process and they've already selected people who were there they want to do the background checks," and we found out that actually wasn't the case.

It basically anybody who was interested in volunteering needed to get a background check as the first phase, but we decided we had a discussion about this, and we decided to let the misinformation go and tell our daughter, "Hey look, they didn't pick your mom and you're going to be on your own." We actually did have a legitimate discussion about, "Should you go, or should we put her out there on her own?" We made a conscious decision of like, "Look, she's going to be fine," and it turned out she drew your wife in that sense.

That was a lot easier to have your wife be there, but yes, I think that that was a big thing for us and saying everybody wanted to go, and then we decided actually it's probably better to just let her go without us, and I think that because we know that every year there's going to be one, and now we have a son who's at it, and I think that we come to the realization that we would actually prefer not to do any of the volunteering, so that they can have a little bit more independence.

Our lack of outdoor experience it's aside. I think it's a very good experience for the kids. Just as you point out. First grade does seem a little young or it's kindergarten actually kindergarten. Does feel a little young to have that overnight experience, but yes, when you're with your friends and there's an adult chaperone and they also have it where it's a single sex tent with the same gender chaperone. That feels also safer for those kids, and so we, after maybe some hemming and hawing about it we made a conscious decision about that.

That was a great experience for her. We've also done one sleepover with a friend that feels like maybe that was two years ago. It was certainly before COVID, but it feels like it was must have been first grade, or the beginning of second grade. Then that friend came back over here, and so that was a lot of fun. We made pancakes in the morning, and they made cookies together, and what I actually did for her mom is I, as we did fun stuff, I constantly be texting the mom pictures.

Just so she knew what was going on, and keeping them in the loop. Then like you, my son and daughter have gone back and forth a few times to grandma's house. I think he's maybe only done the sleep over twice at her place, and my daughter did them when she was a lot younger. When our son was an infant, our daughter would go over to grandma's much more frequently to the point that it wasn't a big deal. Then we had this void of, I feel like a year or two.

Then the last time we, they had the sleepover, which was before COVID the daughter went kicking and screaming, and then once you leave, it's fine. It wasn't a big deal, but there's that initial separation anxiety when you go, "Okay, it's time to go, bye." You try and make it as quick as possible and just rip that Band-Aid off, and just out the door and bye, turn and leave, but there was a little bit of hemming and hawing, but of course by a few minutes later, everything was fine.

When we went back the next morning, she didn't want to come home. That's how these things work. I think it's good for them to go back, and going back to school, hopefully we'll start to get maybe a few more of the sessions sleepovers in certainly as COVID, delta hopefully starts to slow down, which is hopefully not too much longer. The kids can maybe start going back and doing sleepovers again.

Jim: It's an interesting thing about the-- I hadn't thought about that as far as sleeping over when I was a kid. We had to pick up the phone, and use the rotary dial [laughs] to call mom and dad. You make a really good point that there's a lot more transparency, or there can be a lot more transparency, and lot more communication among the parents, and then eventually with the kids too. My daughter doesn't have a phone. I hope she never does, but she will eventually.

That communication, that open channel, I think would give me a lot of assurance that instead of just that black hole that maybe it was when I was growing up. I hadn't thought about that as far as parents sending photos and updates and all that. Just as a courtesy to the other parent, as far as giving them some assurances.

Dave: I think also one of the nice things is to be able to FaceTime her, have a virtual, where you can see each other. If you're a little bit concerned, you can see your child's face, and their expressions say, "Okay, seems relaxed or he's--"

Jim: Everything seems fine. Doesn't look like a hostage video.

Dave: Right. Everything feels good over there. There's a ton of ways to put yourself at ease, I think for those first sleepovers. Has your daughter been asking? It sounds like things went really well with grandma. My guess is they've been asking for more sleepovers with grandma. Has she been asking about sleepovers with friends and like, "Can I have this kid over or can I go over to this kid's house?"

Jim: Yes, she's gone far enough. She and her other friends have gone far enough to planning it out conceptually, and started to talk about it. Then the parents got to figure out how to make it happen, but we hadn't yet, and she's still interested in sleepovers, but we've since moved to a different school. We're getting to know the community together, and get to know the the other kids in the class. I think it may be a little while before we're at that comfort level where there could be some sleepovers with the new friends.

There's still the possibility of sleepovers with the old friends despite our being a little bit further away than we were before. The older one, certainly she's ready for it. The younger one, I don't think she really quite understands the concept yet, but the older one is-- Yes, I think that she'll find the right moment. She'll be ready to go.

Dave: For us the last year, we certainly started to hear more about the sleepovers and our daughter is organizing with her friends and actually towards the end of the school year, one of her friends' parents was like, "Hey, are you comfortable with having your daughter come over?" At the time I think we were, and it was as things had calmed down, but we decided, "COVID still out there, but we're all vaccinated, but let's see how it goes."

Also what we know about them is that they would prefer to have our daughter go over there. I guess they're open to having people come over, but they're not yet ready for their daughter to come over elsewhere, which is fine. That's great for our daughter to have that experience, but I think part of where it works is that we've had some time to get to know them. Also they have picked up my daughter after school a couple of times like, "Oh yes, we'll pick her up, and you can come pick her up at five or six o'clock."

She already had some familiarity with the house, and the older sister who is a few years older than our daughter. Also, I've been in the house just to pick up my daughter, and spent a little bit of time with the family. It feels like that's pretty good. I do wonder when it comes to time to put up, or shut up with the sleepovers, if having spent all this time in this COVID bubble where we're on top of each other all the time, if she'll have a little bit of separation anxiety?

I feel like that's actually more likely with the grandparents than with a friend where she's just going to be like, "That's exciting." It's more like, I think with friends, it's like, "Okay, you've dropped me off now, get out of here. We're going to start our party." Versus the grandparents where there's a little bit more familiarity to the whole thing, and it's maybe not as unique or special, and she might feel like, "Oh, you're just trying to get rid of me for the weekend," or something like that. I don't know. We'll see when the time comes.

Jim: You know what I remembered? Just in our conversations that we did do a trial sleepover where we did like a pre-sleepover where the girls got in their pajamas, they went over there, they watched TV, they got all the way up to bedtime, and then it was [unintelligible 00:14:39] our daughter's decision. "Do you want to go ahead and stay, or do you want to come home?" At the last moment she decided she did want to come home which was fine.

I'm glad we did that, because then she had the evening sleepover party experience, but she wasn't comfortable enough sleeping over. We just came and picked her up without it being like an aborted mission, it was [inaudible 00:14:58] we get to that point and then it's her option. Does she want to continue, or does she want to go home? She wanted to go home and that was fine.

That was about the closest we've come to sleepover. I think it was a good half measure. I think it gave her an idea of what it was like, and now I think when we do the next sleepover, I think she'll be much more comfortable.

Dave: I like that as a transition of just getting somebody ready to, and then, "Hey, if you're ready, we can leave. If you're not ready, we'll all go home. It's no big deal." I like that.

Jim: Yes. We had talked about doing like a movie night, like a pajama movie night with some of the other families, just for exactly that reason. Let the girls get together. Put the sleeping bags out on the floor, and watch a movie in their pajamas and then maybe that's it, maybe then we just call it a night.

Dave: Nice, which is still special being in pajamas in somebody else's house, and having a movie night, that's nice. We were just over to friend's house, and they were saying that they had some other friends over, and then they were having fun, and then the afternoon turns into the evening and they stuck around for dinner. They're like, "You may as well just spend the night at our house." They spent the night, and then they went hiking and then again, the next day turned into hike and then dinner.

They're like, "You may as well just crash here again." I'm like, "Wow, that's insane that you just randomly had people over for like 48 hours. I'm not sure that I'm like that chill about things," but certainly some sleepovers are a little bit less planned than others. Wow, but if you are planning some sleepovers, here's some advice that we actually found from the Alliance for Children, and there are a few points that they think are worth mentioning as you plan for sleepovers.

The first one is meet the parents, make sure that the adults are prepared to be with the children the whole time that your child's going to be there, and ask if there're going to be any other adults that might be coming into the home while your child's there. Just so you have a sense of the other adults that your child is going to be interacting with. Number two, ask if older children or adolescents will be in the home, and what the sleeping arrangements are going to be for the kids.

40%, according to them, 40% of children who are sexually abused are abused by older children, so certainly that's something to be cognizant of. Number three, check the sex offender registry to verify that the people your child may encounter are not registered sex offenders. Also if possible, visit the home to ensure that the environment is safe and healthy. You ask if there are any weapons in the home. If there are, ensure that the weapons are secure and not accessible to children.

The next point is have a safety talk with your child about their private parts, and their authority to say no to uncomfortable situations. Plan to call and check in on your child during the sleepover, allow your child to call you at any time, and let your child know that he or she will not be in trouble for contacting you. Create a code word for your child to use on a text or a phone call if they're in an unsafe situation, and need a discreet way to tell you if they're unsafe.

The last one is never force a child to stay somewhere they are uncomfortable. What I find interesting about a few of these also is that some of them are not things that you can do off the cuff, like, "Okay, you're just about to go to your friend's house. Let's talk about our private parts, and how to handle that." Some of these, you need to lay the groundwork before you're ready to have that sleepover. I think some of these also can raise some points of awkwardness as you're dealing with other parents.

Jim, we've talked about this thing where-- I read an article where this woman was like, "Yes, I never allow my child to go over to a house without asking if there's a weapon in the home." It's not something that I had ever thought of until I read this article. I guess I'm not even sure where to begin that conversation. I guess the best way to do it is just to have the conversation, right? It's a conversation, it doesn't mean that anybody should be offended one way or the other.

Some of these things, you have to figure out how to have those conversations. Certainly the things about maybe the older children or adolescents might be a little bit touchy like, "Do you think my older son or older daughter is going to do something to your kid?" Some of these are interesting and like how you handle them. What are your concerns about having, or requirements even about having sleepovers?

Jim: My question is these situations are what's the worst that could happen? That's you're talking about a sleepover, there's a lot of variables that could go wrong. I agree these, a lot of these conversations are not comfortable, and I'm not sure that I would have those [unintelligible 00:19:38]. I'm not sure that I'd ask parents if there's weapon in the home, but I mean the weapon in the home, pools, the older children.

"Statistically, do you think my older son's going to molest your--?" "Well, statistically, that's entirely possible." I don't know. I think those are questions that-- I think it depends on context, you know?

Dave: Yes.

Jim: I'm assuming that I'll have relationships with these parents, or these families outside of just meeting them to and from at school, in which case, I'd know if there was reason to ask for those questions. If I've got to ask those questions, maybe they're not having a sleepover. I think it's just an overall comfort level that hopefully, intuitively I'd have a sense of whether or not it's going to be a safe situation.

I think the Alliance For Children nails the high points, and I think the communication is probably going to be the backstop, knowing that really, training is not the right word, but letting my daughter know that she can, or should call me, and in the moment that she's even the slightest bit uncomfortable, and maybe we just talk it out on the phone, or maybe we pull the plug on it.

Really, it's just about having my child, or conversely, we haven't really talked about that either, but having another child in my home and just taking that responsibility, and what what is it like to be a child in another family environment, and what is that going to look like? What do I anticipate that would feel like for my daughter, and whether or not is something that I'd be comfortable with overall?

Dave: Yes, it does feel like some of these pieces of advice. I think if you've had a longer-term relationship with the parents, some of them, you don't necessarily need to ask, but I do understand where they're going with this. Certainly, if you don't really know the parent, Yes, this is like a great checklist, but then if you don't really know the parent, and to your point like is that maybe the right time to have a sleepover?

Maybe you need to have some playdates before you're ready to pull the trigger on the sleepover, and you may be, "Let's have five or six play dates and then let's see." If I feel comfortable, let's have the sleepover, but I think that it's a good point that you bring up. Some of these are a little bit difficult to tackle, and some I don't know, that you necessarily need to tackle if you feel like you really know those parents very well.

With being said, there certainly are those instances where you're like, "This was a family friend and we've known them all our lives, and it turns out this person had been molesting my child for all this time."

Jim: Yes.

Dave: I do think that part of it starts with that point that they talked about is this, again, the privacy of the private parts, and the authority to say no to uncomfortable situations. I think a lot of this is we have to have our children prepared, not to understand [unintelligible 00:22:40] what's going on, but to trust in their emotions that, "Hey, I don't know what's going on here, but I don't feel right." To let them know, "Okay, we'll--" We have to then figure out. The difficulty, certainly, for us is that, in that situation, our kids don't have phones.

Now you're reliant on getting outside communication. I think, at a high level, it's teaching the kids to go with their gut and say, "Something doesn't feel right, and I need to get out of here." Maybe what it is, is that, like this code word, they need to say, "Hey, you know, what my mom said that I had to call exactly at this time, and if I don't call, she's going to get upset," or give them a line, that they can feed an adult in that house, that would then allow them to call you, and then use that code word to say, "Hey, it's whatever time to pick up," or whatever that situation is.

I think we need to empower kids to say, "Hey, you don't need to spend the whole night. If something feels off, get out of there, there's no problem, I'll pick you up. No problem at all." Hopefully, if they're armed with that, then we can both feel confident, not just the child, but also that our child is empowered, and is making responsible decisions. This goes back to some conversations we've had about just trusting our kids and giving them the basis for making these decisions, and then trusting that they will go with their gut, and that what we've done has prepared them for these situations.

Jim: It's really interesting way to look at or to think about it. What I'm imagining is like, "This is game day." All the books that we've read and all the conversations we've had with our children about safety, and private parts and what to do when you when you're unsafe, and was it? The safety rules? All of those things. This is why we're doing that, right?

Dave: Yes.

Jim: We're doing that thing then when they are that situation, when it's game day, and they're at a sleep over, have they mastered those tools and enough to keep themselves safe? I think looking at it from that perspective, I'm suddenly much more comfortable with it. I think we've given them a lot of tools, and a lot of education about how to be safe, and how to take care of themselves. I think this would be the time where it's when this application would be most important, and I think that would work out just fine.

Dave: Yes, I think, at a high level we are all concerned about the same things, pools, weapons, those things, and certainly knowing the parents well. Those are my, not that red lines, but I think that probably knowing the parents well to me is probably the number one indicator of whether or not I feel comfortable. I probably wouldn't, even if it's a child that she's been with at school, because at our school, they're still mixing up the kids.

I was looking at our class list this year, I don't even know half these kids, and it's entirely possible they've all been together for the last four years, we just haven't crossed paths. That being said, am I willing to let her have a sleep over with a kid who maybe has been in the same school for last four years without knowing their parents? No, not yet. I think that that's the big piece. To me it's, have we trained our kids, A, and given them the tools?

B, how comfortable do I feel with this family as people, and as a steward of my child for the next, whatever, 12, 24 hours, whatever it is, that that there'll be a proper steward of my child? I think if the answer to those are both, yes, then we should feel pretty good about saying, "Okay, have a fun time." I'm not going to stress it at all, I'm not even going to worry.

She knows what to do and I trust these parents, and those two things are the biggest things that I can do to have her prepared. What are your thoughts if any on coed, boy-girl sleepovers?

Jim: I'm not comfortable with that, but I'm ready to hear you persuade me otherwise.

Dave: [laughs] I'm not sure that I'm necessarily comfortable with it. The reason this question came up is my daughter was just hanging out with some family friends just yesterday, and she came back and she said, "These guys are coming over to our house." I'm like, "What? This is news to me." I asked my wife, she's like, "Yes, those were the kids talking to each other, none of the parents had said anything." I was like, "I'm not sure how to think about this."

I guess part of it for me was that, as I mentioned at the top, that in high school, all of my sleepovers were coed, because at that point, my best friends were girls. I didn't have any real close male friends at that point. You're going to do what you're going to do, whether your parents at home or not. It's a little bit different, maybe as you're in high school, because you have a whole bunch of different issues to deal with, when you're in high school.

As we were talking about, at the beginning of the podcast, just as we were prepping, the concern that you have about-- The curiosity and getting into that eight or nine about curiosity, and bodies and things like that. I wonder if part of it is also that I have not, I don't want to-- Downplay is not the right word, but because I have kids of both genders, I guess I don't think about it as much. My son will run around the house naked, it's not like my daughter's never seen male genitalia, because that's what the kids do sometimes and vice versa.

It's not just one kid running around naked, it's usually both kids running around naked if they're going to run around, so that's a thing. I guess I hadn't really thought through the whole like, "Yes, kids are naturally inquisitive." There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but it does get complicated when they act on that and additionally, I was like, "That's probably okay." Talking to you earlier like, "Well, it's not okay."

[laughter]

Dave: I think that part of it too as we talked about in terms of maybe what makes us feel a little bit more comfortable in sleepovers is, in a coed situation, if it was just one boy and one girl-- Actually, first of all, I think that maybe a group of kids is a little bit different, if it's like three boys and two girls or two girls and three boys or whatever, where there's multiple kids, that might make me feel a little bit better.

I think the bigger thing is probably that if the kids are in a public room, like a living room, they're sleeping in a living room. I may be a little bit less concerned about things happening, but I am starting to question my-- I wasn't like fully in the camp of like, "Yes, Coed sleepers are fine." I am started to question that. It's not even something that we've talked about. I haven't even talked to my wife about it. She absolutely could be like, "Yes, that's never happening."

Okay, that's fine if she's not comfortable with it, all right. End of story. We haven't discussed it, this literally was a question that our daughter popped up within the last 24 hours. I haven't given it too much thought, but yes, without having talked to you I was like, "It's probably okay," but having talked to you now, I'm like, "It feels a little people are on the fence now."

Jim: What is the cost-benefit analysis? There's certainly some things that could go sideways.

Dave: Yes.

Jim: What are they gaining? They can hang out with those boys another time.

Dave: I guess I would also say that for the time being, I don't really think it's going to come to fruition anyway, because for starters, it's two boys, and I'm not having two boys in the house. It's because now it's suddenly there are three boys in the house, and that just feels like a recipe for disaster, to have four kids and three boys running around this house, which is not very big. I think just logistically, it's probably not going to happen.

Besides these boys, my daughter's mostly friends with girls at school, these guys don't go to our school, they're family friends, so in terms of the school situation, where it's actually much more likely to happen she's mostly friends with girls. Actually, these guys also live 30 miles away, that's another piece that it's probably more likely that it's not going to happen. Although this is the family that impromptu 48 hours sleepover.

You never know with them, but I think that if there was a legitimate parent coming to me and say, "Hey, would your daughter like to come over to my son's house for sleepover?" I'm not clear that I would be as nonchalant as we are on this call. I think certainly, her going over there is a little bit more problematic than him coming-- I'd probably be more open to a boy coming here, but I'm still not clear that I am okay with it yet.

Jim: You wait one year, and you're not going to have to have this debate anymore.

[laughter]

Dave: It's true. Yes, probably a year from now, It'll be a-

Jim: I don't know.

Dave: We don't even have a discussion, it's a hard no. Moving on. [chuckles] Do you have any thoughts on COVID sleepovers, this COVID, and what's going on change, how you think about sleepovers?

Jim: I don't think so, any kid that's going to have a sleepover, either here or there, the girls are going to be spending time together with them anyway, whether it's school or extracurricular activities, or whatever it is, so I'm not so worried about that. Then if they're exposed to the kid, the kid's exposed to the parents, so it's still feels like there's enough tentative, it's doesn't feel like a huge risk. It doesn't concern me very much.

Dave: Do you ask if they're vaccinated before you allow the kids to go?

Jim: It's a good question. I hadn't thought about that. No, that's funny, because I just assumed that everyone is, but that's certainly not the case. I guess that's worth asking about.

Dave: I think you're right. At the end of the day, our kids are mixing with these kids anyway. Now that being said, we are in a place where, I don't know about your school, but our school is still going to be masked up this year. I assume yours is too probably, right? The kids, yes they are interacting, but they are masked up, and the only difference to me then would be at the sleepover. I'm not going to be asking somebody's kid or my kid to sleep with a mask on for eight, 10 hours, I just don't even think you could do that anyway.

That to me is the one place where I vacillate back and forth is that certainly indoors, you're supposed to be masking, but these kids and their family are probably technically part of our bubble since if our kids are close enough to be wanting to have a sleepover well, then they're clearly spending a decent amount of time. At school, they're probably eating lunch together, which is when you can't really mask up while you're eating.

I think it feels like that the risks are probably not that much greater, although, again, my hesitation is the sleeping period, and I would certainly ask if the parents are vaccinated, so that the parents that did ask, if our daughter wanted to go over for sleepover, they said by the way, we're vaccinated. I feel like it's one of those things where if you're going to ask somebody, it's maybe a nice gesture to say, what your vaccination status is, is my guess. That's what they did for us.

Jim: I think I would assume if our daughter had a fever or wasn't feeling well, I would certainly call the parents, and be like, "Sleepovers off, and she's feeling sick," I would assume that there'd be a reciprocal.

Dave: Yes, you'd think so.

Jim: You'd know the parents, and if there isn't, maybe rather than then talking about vaccination, just, "Is anybody in your family sick or have they been sick recently?" Not quite the checklist that you get when you go into an establishment or something like that, a doctor's office, but just, "Everyone healthy?" Then maybe that's enough.

Dave: My guess is that probably the people of similar vaccination thoughts are of similar risk thoughts, so if you're a vaccinated parent, and you having a sleepover with another vaccinated family, there probably is a similar level of risk tolerance of saying, "Okay, this is my risk tolerance, we probably are at the same level." If you're two unvaccinated families, again, you probably have the same risk tolerance.

My guess is unless you're going from an unvaccinated to a vaccinated, you're probably in line with the same level of ways that you're thinking about, and the same safety requirements that you have. That being said, I think among our friends, we're all vaccinated, but still within that I'm still probably one of the more cautious. I think in generally speaking in general terms, yes, I would expect that if you were dealing with another vaccinated parent, their child had a fever, or if somebody else in the family had a fever, they'd pull the trigger and say, "You know what, let's just wait until next weekend." That's my guess.

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