Quick Covid Check In
Photo by Kelly Sikkema on Unsplash
In today’s episode, Dave and Jim discuss the recent changes to the CDC mask guidelines and how, if at all, it affects them.
During this episode we’ll discuss:
How the new mask guidelines affect them
What our risk tolerance is given the decrease in COVID cases in the US
When we plan to return to extracurricular/after school activities
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TRANSCRIPT
[music]
Dave: In today's episode, we're doing a quick COVID check-in.
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Papa est Fatigué Podcast, the podcast for dads by dads. With the recent change in guidance from the CDC on mask-wearing, we just wanted to check in with each other and see how things are going, but before we get into that, here's my deal. I'm Dave, I have a seven-year-old daughter and a four-year-old boy.
Jim: I'm Jim, I got a seven-year-old girl and a five-year-old girl.
Dave: Great. Well, look, a few weeks ago, the CDC changed their guidance on mask-wearing and said that fully-vaccinated people may remove their masks for most activities and this left a ton of parents, Jim, like you and me, wondering what to do since the vaccine is only approved for kids 12 and up. Before we get into how this has affected us and where we are today, I just wanted to set up a baseline in terms of how did you guys handle things during COVID? Were you masked up, socially-distanced? If you can talk a little bit about when we were in the throws of COVID, how you guys responded to that, and then we can talk a little bit about how the new changes has affected us.
Jim: This one-year anniversary has been really interesting to reflect back on what it was like at the beginning, and I'm sure you remember. It was like a snow day. We didn't even leave the house. It was like we were snowed in, and we were- [crosstalk]
Dave: Perpetually.
Jim: -in space or something. It felt dangerous outside, like a zombie apocalypse or something like that. It was definitely a feeling of being hunkered down in the fort. Let me back up. My brother and his wife are physicians, and so earlier on, I think it might even have been before the end of the year, they were warning us about this thing and it was really serious, and everyone is not really taking it seriously. The bottom line is that my wife and I were early adopters of the COVID precautions and evangelicals for our friends who weren't taking it seriously.
We talked about flattening the curve. I'm being concerned about my brother and his wife, and they are healthcare workers. I felt like I was doing it for them, but earlier on, it was genuinely scary. There were times when I was outside, and you wouldn't get too close to somebody. I saw some people get into almost a shoving match at the grocery store because the person standing behind them was standing too close. The guy, he turned around and he's like, "Hey, back off. What are you doing?" I don't think the lady that was behind him was wearing a mask.
Anyway, we took it seriously. Definitely stayed indoors, used the masks when we were outdoors, and just about all the time. Anytime we left the house, we had the mask on. Obviously, I had to go to the store as the family stayed home, and we did most stuff online. I would say that we took it very seriously, very isolated, didn't have any activities, or didn't even see our family until we started to figure out some of the protocols, some of the logistics. Anyhow, at the beginning, we were very locked down.
Dave: We were similar to you. It was that siege mentality like, "Don't go outside in whatever you do." We hunkered down, and just like you, I don't think the kids have been into a store in 16 months, any kind of store at all. I'm doing the shopping or we're doing whatever, Door Dash, or Amazon or whatever. We've done a lot of that, certainly, this socially distance stuff. We took it pretty seriously.
When things first hit, we knew that "All right, let's plan that we're going to be stuck indoors for a long time." We started locking down in March. My kids' birthdays are summer-ish, and I had gone as far as going like, "I better order their birthday presents because who knows what's going to happen in the supply chain? While everything else is going on in the world is nutty, at least we can have a birthday for them," and so this was obviously last year. This year is very different. We were in that same mentality of, "Okay, let's mask up and stay at home, help with the curve and everything."
Prior to this announcement about the mask, things have started to ease up in terms of where we are, the number are going down in terms of the number of per capita, infection rates, decimals, those kinds of things. How have you started to, if at all, modify how you guys handle the world? Maybe before we get into the masking piece, in that little portion where things are starting to get back to normal, what does your new normal look like?
Jim: You had said something earlier that triggered a memory for me about easing back into it. I think it was maybe six weeks ago, I don't know if it was in two months, but I remember having that feeling of doing some things that felt risky, things that would have made me more anxious and just being like, "You know what? I got to get used to this. Let's just start doing this and start feeling out the water and feeling out what it's like."
Ever since the beginning, I've taken this as a probabilities exercise. I'm going to make up some numbers. 9 out of 10 people had never been exposed to COVID. Let's say that's the number. Of the people that have been exposed to COVID, there's a certain percentage that actually contracted it. Of the people that contracted it, if I'm wearing a mask and you're wearing a mask, it's down to 30%. You stack up those probabilities, the chances of me getting it are pretty low, but still, if you do get it, then the consequences are so high. It's a low probability with a high consequence that made it a certain balancing act.
Anyway, in taking those probabilities, it was probably when people started to get vaccinated, probably close to when school opened up again too. It was an easing back into it. I'm pretty comfortable where we are now. I mask up when I have to, but being outdoors without a mask feels okay.
Dave: We started, I don't know, it was a few months ago, going back to the playground. I will say that in terms of-
Jim: The first time back to the playground was a big deal.
Dave: There's-- anxiety is not quite the right word, but you certainly have your eyes opened for like, "Is there anybody out here without a mask on?"
Jim: Heightened awareness.
Dave: Right. The truth is that the data always suggested that, again, as long as you're wearing a mask, even that outdoor transmission is very, very low. Even knowing that it wasn't something where I was like, "Okay, let's run to the playground." Early on, when we started going back to the playgrounds, I would tell the kids, I was like, "Look, we're going to the playground, but if I see a bunch of kids without masks, we're going home. Don't get too excited about this because we don't know until we get there." It wasn't actually necessarily always kids without masks, it was just too many kids.
At that point, I was still a little bit not quite sure, and so it's like, "Look, if the playground's packed or if it's a bunch of kids running around without masks, we're going home. Just get used to it." They were fine with that. They understood. Slowly, over time, we'd certainly go to more and more playgrounds. The one thing is I still keep an eye out for unmasked kids, but that's pretty rare. Granted maybe before this guidance came out, but it's pretty rare to go to a playground and see anybody, parents or kids, running around without masks. Obviously, again, there's the under two that's a little bit different. That's a whole different game, and so I care less about-- care less is not the right word, but I'm-
Jim: [chuckles] Less concerned.
Dave: Yes, I'm less concerned about the two-year-old running around, but I will tell my kids, "Hey, that two-year-old, maybe give that kid a little bit of a wider [unintelligible 00:08:00] We started easing into that and then slowly having playdates outside in the playground, and allowing the kids to also eat during those playdates. I started separating them but at least allowing them to see their friends and that kind of stuff. We've gotten to that point now where going to the playground is not a big deal anymore, but that was certainly a thing that I felt that I needed to ease into.
We're starting to slowly return to normal. I've seen, just in the last couple of weeks, all of a sudden, there are birthday parties again. We've gone through 16 months, not a single-- Actually, there was a birthday party for a girl in May of last year, and it was one of the drive-bys. Everybody jumped in the car, and we waved out the window. We've literally had one birthday in the last a little bit over a year, I'd say 13 months, and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, we had two birthdays on one day, and then there was all sorts of other activities.
I will say that people are talking about, "What are the things that you would like to keep from this experience?" I said, "Not having constant birthday parties and events on the weekend is something that I would like to keep." I would say that the birthday party, this was just two weeks ago, but they were super jarring for me because they were lunchtime birthdays. Had I known how many people were being invited, I honestly would not have gone.
I wasn't prepared for it because the kids were in masks, the adults were in masks because there was pizza and stuff like that. Again, this was before the change in the mask requirements came out, and so it was really abrupt for me. Again, anxiety is not quite the right word but I was just like, "Wow, this is weird," and I'm like, "Let's go find a little space over here to eat your pizza." Some of the other families were doing that too. There was a picnic bench where there were some families. Other families for the picnic were at different areas of the park and then we'd come back.
I would say that that was an abrupt reentry. If I had to do it over again, I would not have. It was one of these rip-the-band-aid-off feels. I think that that'll probably become increasingly normal.
We did that. We went cherry-picking last weekend and then we had a picnic with some-- there were about four families. It's cherry-picking, you're not on top of each other. On our picnic, everybody plotted out their space with their blanket. We were all pretty distant but still able to talk to each other. Those kinds of things. Certainly the outdoor stuff for the most part.
Jim: I've always felt comfortable there.
Dave: That feels like, "Okay." I'm not ready for summer camps yet, I don't think the kids.
Jim: Not me.
Dave: I think we're slowly reentering. I guess maybe that's a good transition into, with the new mask guidance, if at all, has that affected you? How are you thinking about that? Are you going to continue to mask? All of those things. Is there a new normal for you now knowing that the guidance has changed?
Jim: I hadn't really thought about what my position is on all that. My family did some things outdoors today and thinking about how I was feeling. If I had to nail down a principle, I have my mask with me. Usually I'll wear it maybe tucked under my chin. If I see somebody else with a mask that is coming towards me or somebody I have to interact with, I'll put my mask up. I don't really feel anxious about that. Indoors is a different story but outdoors, I'm okay with that. If somebody else has their mask up, it's an active consideration. If they want the mask up, fine, I'll put mine up too, but generally, outdoors, I'm starting to feel pretty relaxed about it.
Dave: Good. For me, at least right now, I plan to continue to wear the mask. I think part of that is that specifically based on the age of the kids that it's hard to have two sets of rules. Again, my youngest is four, he'll be five soon. He's great at the mask. Actually, mostly, he wears the mask in the car. He's just like, "[unintelligible 00:12:41]" There are times we're like, "You can take the mask off," he's like, "No, it's fine." He's doing great with the mask. I guess I just don't want it to become this thing where like, "Hey, why do you get to take mask off and I don't?"
Part of it is it allows us to keep that thread of like, "Hey, I'm wearing a mask." At some point, I'm sure the kids will ask, "You're still wearing a mask, why aren't those people wearing a mask?" and then we'll have a discussion about that. One, for me personally, I think it's easier for the kids.
The other thing too is that, again, I'm not quite sure that anxiety's the right word but I'm not sure if mentally, I'm ready to take the mask off yet. It's funny, I was reading this article and it was something to the effect of, "People believe in science until they don't." [laughs] I know that the science says what it says on the fact that you can take the mask off and if you're fully vaccinated, that you're unlikely to get it. If you do get it, you're unlikely to be hospitalized, also very importantly, you're unlikely to pass it on anybody, which is the other component of this masking thing.
Part of it, to me feels like this whole masking thing was off and on. It was like, "First, you don't need mask, then you do need masks. First, it only protects other people. Now, it protects every--" I think the communication around why the mask has not always been really clear but I do think that, part of it is for me, just keeping the mask on still, maybe it's that protective shell until I'm mentally ready.
Also as you mentioned, the last pieces, again, as I read more and more and understand all the people that are affected, in particular the compromised who, they absolutely can get the shot but the effectiveness of that shot is still way up in the air. Part of the reason that I think it makes sense for me to wear a mask is for those people because, somebody walking down the street, I don't know what their deal is. I think as you pointed out, it's a sign of-- it's not deference to them but a sign of respect I guess.
Jim: Just consideration.
Dave: Yes, consideration. I like how you think about it though is that, "Well, if I see someone wearing the mask, then I'll put mine up." Yes, if you see a bunch of unmasked people, then they're clearly-
Jim: They're cool with it, yes.
Dave: Right, they're either cool with it or they've chosen not to get vaccinated for whatever reason. I think that the idea that you have of having it around, if you see somebody coming the other way, just pulling it up, is a good one. I've just been reading so much. There is this one article in particular that I was reading about. It was this woman, I think she was in her mid-20s, and her grandmother had passed away from COVID. You actually hear a lot about this, people when they first get their vaccination shot, it's really an emotional experience for them if they've lost somebody because they think about that person who never had the chance.
She's like, "I'm going out in the world, I'm not ready to take my mask off and part of that is I do that to honor my grandmother, who was never able to get that chance." I think people have been scarred by this. If me wearing a mask helps somebody to feel a little safer, I'm fine with that. To me, the mask was never that big of a deal, it didn't bother me. To me, that's a small price to pay to make somebody feel maybe a little bit safer. We'll see, at some point, it'll probably feel more natural for me to go out of the house without the mask. I think at least in the short term here, I'll continue to wear the mask outdoors and then obviously indoors for sure.
I am looking forward to getting back to some of the specialty grocery stores that I have not gone into in 16 months and my kids are like, "When can you get that thing?" and I'm like, "Oh, it's so close. I'm almost fully there." I'm still not ready for the kids to walk into a store yet. We were talking recently about some of the things that we might consider doing again, now the vaccination rates are going up and all these things, my wife was like, "Hey, do you want to go to a theme park?" and I'm like, "It's outdoors but you mostly stand in a line."
For me personally, that doesn't yet feel like it's okay to bring the kids. As an adult, I would be perfectly fine with that but because the kids are unvaccinated, and we talked about this, the data suggests that the kids are unlikely to get it, if they do get it, they're unlikely to get super sick from it. Again, it's all [unintelligible 00:17:14] but there are those instances. It feels like a small trade-off to be like, "Let's wait one year to go to whatever, Disneyland or local theme park before we go back just out of preponderance of caution, I guess."
Are there things that you now are like, "We're absolutely willing to do that now based on the signs and the direction that the vaccinations are going in," that just maybe last week or last month, you were like, "It feels a little sketchy to me"?
Jim: I think probably getting together with family, that was a big benchmark for us, or a big threshold I think, where the last family gathering is my brother's family and the grandmas are all nearby. The last gathering when we were all together was in November. We just got together again about two weeks ago. It was fine. We're all vaccinated. Before we had a pseudo outdoor thing. It was around Thanksgiving where we were set up in my mom's garage, we had the garage door open, we had the windows open, we had a space heater. Everyone was masked and we were all socially distanced.
That was the last interaction that we had with family. Then these two weeks ago, we're all vaccinated. You were talking about things we didn't do before. We didn't go inside unless we had to use the washroom. This time around, everyone was vaccinated, we weren't wearing masks, hugs, hanging out in the kitchen together, making lunch. That was something that I was not comfortable doing, even just a couple of months ago. I think the vaccination has a big part of it or it is a big part of it for me.
I know somebody who, he and his wife, both were vaccinated and she tested positive for COVID but had zero symptoms, zero symptoms at all. That gives me a lot of encouragement that the vaccination is pretty, I don't know what's the right word, robust. That it's going to be effective for us.
Dave: I think that watershed moment of saying, "Okay, we're ready to see family." Like you, the last time we saw my parents was, I think, summertime of last year. I've mentioned in previous podcasts that we used to go there every Friday for dinner. To cut the kids off from that was pretty abrupt. My daughter FaceTimes, my son also FaceTimes grandma, but it's not the same. They were vaccinated because they're older obviously. They were fully vaccinated, I would say probably about a month or two maybe at this point. A little bit longer.
What they have started to do is my dad picks the kids up from school on Fridays, which is great, this the second or third Friday that he's done it. Then we started to slowly get back to having dinner over there on Fridays and it was nice. The weather's been a little funky this week. We actually had our first indoor meal which has been very, very rare. It's been less than a year since we've had an indoor meal. I think we're all starting to get a sense of, "The family stuff." Also, I think within reason we trust family. That's part of it. They say they're not going out. I trust that you're doing the right thing.
I think that's when you crack the door open to seeing family and then a little bit longer, then now you're seeing friends and life gets back to those pre-COVID days. It feels like we're maybe going down the path to having more playdates and things like that. We have had some playdates with kids that the parents are fully vaccinated and their kids are classmates. If they were going to get sick, they were going to get sick. Whether they're in your house or my house or not, at least they're exposed. We've had one of those where our daughter went over to somebody's house. The family was fully vaccinated.
Just a few weeks ago, three weeks ago, four weeks ago, we probably wouldn't have done that. I'm not saying that we're going to go out and invite a kid over to our house every week. If somebody brings it up, it's not the immediate "no" that it would have been two weeks ago. It's like, "All right, we'll think about it."
I think that the other thing too is around here, people are pretty open about their vaccination status. I know that it can be a touchy subject with some people. Usually in that instance when this family was like, "Hey, is it okay to have your daughter over? We're fully vaccinated," people usually, prefix that understanding that everybody has different levels of comfort. A lot of times the parents would talk each other before the kids get looped in case one parent goes like, "No, I'm not comfortable with that." There's not a bunch of tears of like, "Well, I don't understand."
I think the parents are pretty good about respecting where everybody stands and their comfort level with being vaccinated. I think we talked about the fact that neither one of us seems ready yet for the summer camps. It's a little bit hard to say because we're still far away, but do you think that maybe by September you might start getting back into after-school activities, that potentially we're back to the normal school year kind of thing?
Jim: It'll be interesting to see it in the fall. Maybe you and I talked about it. There are probably masks for kids in the fall. It's probably what's going to happen. I think the after-school activities will be fine. Things like swimming, that still feels weird. That feels very vulnerable. You've got water in your sinuses, you're close to people. It seems a little risky, but certainly, the outdoor activities, things like soccer, basketball, those are things I'd be comfortable with.
Dave: It certainly feels like the school year will start at least while we're masked because the earliest I've seen in terms of projections for having a vaccine for younger kids is September. It's the earliest. I don't know if our youngest will hit that cutoff because with the five-year-olds, is the next tier 5 to 12? Where is the cutoff? Is it 8 to 12? We could be in a situation where oldest are eligible for the vaccine but the younger ones aren't. I think that we're starting to feel like, probably September getting back to normal after-school activities. I'm really torn with the pool because I, like you, believe that's a petri dish.
Jim: That's what it feels like to me.
Dave: Right. At the same time, I'm like, "If there were problems, we would have heard about pools closing right and left." If it was spreading in pools, they would already be shut down and they're not. I am completely on the fence because our daughter, it's been a while, it's been, whatever, 16 months since she's been in a pool and she just wants to get back in. That's the one that has me the most torn. She's not asking to go back to Ju-jitsu. [chuckles] That one doesn't feel like it's safe either given that it's all grappling. In terms of the after-school activities that she used to do, the pool is the one she's really pushing for. I'm really like, "Do we do it?"
My wife and I are both hesitant. I feel like maybe if I did a little bit more research, I might be able to convince the emotional side of me that it's okay. I think that the analytic side says it's probably okay given that the pools are open and nothing's been shut down. Community tracing should be fairly simple since the cases are under control. They say that testing, in general, has fallen quite a bit. That's the one that I'm really the most on the fence about in terms of the after-school. I think that come September, we'll be back to pre-pandemic after-school activities. Swimming might not be, but I think some of the others will be back, certainly soccer and some of the other things.
Jim: What about you and your family and travel? I ask because my wife recently made a hotel reservation for later in the year, and it's the first time I had to think about that, about, either travel on the road or on an airplane or going to a hotel.
Dave: I think that I'm not yet ready to travel on a plane with the kids again because of their vaccination status. I think that traveling in a car is just you're less exposed simply because you can do the takeout, you can eat in the car. We have another podcast where we do road trips and stuff like that. You had the [unintelligible 00:26:07] and stuff like that. I think there are ways to be safe.
One caveat is that when you're in the car you could be traveling through areas that have really high coronavirus cases that you may or may not realize. I think that's one thing or, at least if you're on a plane, you don't know who everybody is. The plane is another one where for the most part, there haven't been a lot of indications that it's spreading like wildfire on planes.
The last time I saw any research, it was, you had to be literally sitting next to the person or the row in front or the row behind. You literally had to be within that small bubble of seats. It's what? Three in front, three versus eight. If you're in the middle seat, there are eight people around you. You'd have to be one of those eight people to get it. My understanding is the filters that they have on the planes, they re-circulate the air so quickly and so often that it is not necessarily as risky as one might think.
Although, again, I'm certainly not ready to take an international flight, but I know people that have. We started to talk about when we were thinking about going on vacation. It feels like, as a family we're thinking that it's probably summertime of 2022 with the caveat that maybe in the fall, if the kids are able to get vaccinated, we can take a nice little roadtrip. We've got this weird October break, or the December break or maybe the Thanksgiving break or something like that. It sounds like you were maybe on different ends of the spectrum in terms of the risk analysis there. What was that conversation like?
Jim: I hadn't even thought about it. The fact that we had the hotel reservation made me have to think about it. Like you with airplanes, there a couple of places like airports, airplanes, some of the kids' museums that are nearby, I just assume somebody is going to get sick. That's just my base assumption. One of the kids or somebody, and if they get sick, then everyone in the family is going to get sick. Airplanes have been low on my list. I talk to a lot of people that have traveled and they say they felt safe.
My mother-in-law recently went to Hawaii and they did the testing on everyone. She felt comfortable because she knew everyone on the plane had been tested and was negative. Then when she was in Hawaii because they've had such strict regulations about it, she said outdoors, not a lot of people wear masks. She said everyone felt comfortable with that or at least she did. I'm not there. I think traveling by an airplane is-- you're rubbing elbows with so many people from so many different backgrounds. You have no idea, like you said. Maybe they're coming from a county that's got a high infection rate or a county that doesn't take the protocol seriously. You never know.
Dave: I was reading somewhere that human beings are terrible at assessing risk. [chuckles] We're either like, "You should never fly because one plane is a problem," or we're the exact opposite in the spectrum. I think this is a great example of how we're not good at assessing risk. Some of it is, at least when I was reading, because early on I'm like, "It seems like it's safe to fly, oddly enough," and then I was reading something that like, "Part of it is because there weren't a lot of studies done."
[laughter]
Then I'm like, "That's a little bit different." I think it'll be interesting to see how things play out in the next few months here. It sounds like we're going to need to get boosters. It sounds like they're on track for the younger kids to be vaccinated at least by the end of the year or at least to be availed. Whether or not they will have vaccines available is another question. It seems like they probably will but there was the run on vaccines for the-- it was with 12 to 15-year-olds, the most recent tranche of kids that were able to get a vaccine. I think that that will dictate a lot of how our fall travel schedule firms up. Who knows? If the kids are vaccinated, maybe we'll just bolt somewhere for Christmas just to get out. We'd grab the parents and get out of town. I don't know.
The kids are certainly stir crazy. I wouldn't mind going somewhere, but, there is that hole. If you're going to go somewhere, you got to get there somehow. What is your comfort level with that? At this point for me, it's a little early to be like, "I'm willing to jump on a plane in December," but a lot of things can change in the next couple of months in the right direction or the wrong direction.
Jim: You talked about following the science, and you talked about the risk and everyone's personal risk assessment. I wanted to ask you as far as your comfort level or getting back to normal, do you have benchmarks or thresholds or data that once you know, then you'll be comfortable with it? Or are you still going with this intuitive sense? Not that I care in one way or the other.
Dave: At least where we live, the data already suggests that we're doing pretty good. I think we're in the top five most vaccinated counties in the country, so that feels pretty safe. They're saying that this area could have approach herd immunity in the next month or so.
Jim: Outstanding.
Dave: Those are all the things that you go, "Okay, well, the data suggests it's fine." It's just that for 16 months, you've trained yourself, keep the mask on, stay away, cross the street when somebody is crossing with-- I think part of it is just takes a little bit of time to break those habits. Actually, one thing I'm not clear that I want to do anytime soon is jump on public transit.
Jim: That's another one. Everyone is getting sick sooner or later.
Dave: Again, I haven't heard of any outbreaks on public transit in 16 months, but people still got to get to work but that's not something I'm ready to do. Look before the pandemic, that place was a petri dish, to begin with, so on top of it. I think that the numbers and the data is already there and it's really just a function of I have to wrap my emotional brain around the fact that it's okay. The science is there. It's backing up the fact that it's okay.
The last thing I saw too is that Pfizer and Moderna seemed to be holding up pretty well to the variance also because that's a concern but they seem to be holding up pretty well. I think that the data is there and it's just the emotional, the head case part.
Jim: I'm with you. Like I said, it was six weeks ago or something where I felt that emotional transition happening of like, "It's time to start doing this stuff. It makes me uncomfortable, but let's start doing it and get used to it."
Dave: For some people the right thing is to push themselves a little bit at a time until they're back. For, again, some of the people that are just scarred, wait until you're ready. You don't have to feel like just because everybody got their masks off, you need to take yours off. If you're not ready, don't do it. For me, we've been lucky. Over here, my family, we've kept our jobs and we haven't known anyone directly who's passed away from coronavirus. We've been super lucky. Despite that, I'm still feeling like, "I'm not quite sure I'm ready to take the mask off yet." It'll happen. It's just a matter of time.
I might be the weird guy with the mask still on, but that's okay. I'm fine with that. That's the other thing too, is that everybody within your group of friends and family, people should respect you enough to go like, "You want to have a mask, knock yourself out." I think vice versa. The other important point to make is that just because I feel that I want to keep wearing the mask, I don't look at people with the side-eye simply because they feel more ready to get rid of the mask. I think that certainly if you are an adult without kids, that you might be ready to rip that thing off way fast and that's fine.
Well, we hope you found today's episode informative. If you'd like to support the podcast and hear more discussions around fatherhood, please subscribe and drop us your review. If you have any questions, hit us up on the Facebook page. facebook.com/papaestfatigue. That's P-A-P-A-E-S-T-F-A-T-I-G-U-E. Thanks for listening.
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