In today’s episode Jim and Dave freestyle their thoughts on fatherhood.

During this episode we’ll discuss:

• concerns about when to give our kids their first phones

• relationships between children

• whether we try to keep our kids with their best friends when moving grades

• how we carve out little time for the kids

If you like what you heard, please consider subscribing, writing a review, and sharing the podcast on social media.

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Dave: Hey, everyone. Welcome to Papa est Fatigué podcast, the podcast for dads by dads. Today's episode is part of our musings on the fatherhood series. In this series, we throw away the script and we just have a conversation about fatherhood, where we ended up jumping from topic to topic. In this episode, we'll cover our concerns about when to give our kids their first phones, relationships between children, and whether we try and keep our kids with their best friends when moving grades.

To give you just a little bit of info, I'm Dave. I have a four-year-old son and a seven-year-old daughter. My co-host Jim has two girls, a five-year-old and a seven-year-old. Okay. Let's jump right in. With my daughter, I think the challenge at this point is as she sees how things are different in our family and they could be really small things. I don't buy juice. I know it's a small thing and maybe it's a petty thing.

I'm sorry, you don't get juice yet. It's just not a thing, and she's like, "Well, this kid gets juice every day, and this other kid's bringing candy" I'm like, "You don't bring candy to school either." There's small little things that I don't fault parents for doing it, but I'm just like, "Well, that's fine for that kid. We just do things differently," but now that I think about it, I feel like I need to make a greater effort in saying--

Making sure she knows that I'm not judging the parents. The parent who's doing something different, it's not because they're a bad parent, it's not because I'm a good parent. It's just we do things differently, and there's nothing bad or good about that decision, it's just different. I don't want her to think like, "Okay, well, just because that kid gets juice, their parents are terrible parents. Their kid's going to have cavities." That's not the message I'm trying to send here. It's just that at this point, we're not doing that.

It becomes a slippery slope of, "Okay, well, now do I have to buy juice all the time?" It's funny. She was at a friend's house who gave her a few Snapple bottles and it was like Christmas at our house. It's like, "Oh, juice." Every day they're like, "Juice." I guess maybe because we don't buy juice, we're creating that reaction. I think there's something in it that I have to provide that sense of those are just different parenting styles. Again, there's nothing wrong with what I'm doing and there's nothing wrong with what the other parent is doing. It's just we've chosen different things, that's it.

Jim: No. Well, you reminded me with the juice thing, and I'm trying to think about how we handle it. We had a clothing issue where my daughter wanted to wear some clothing that my wife and I just thought was inappropriate, and we had to tread a very careful line of like, "Yes, your friend does, but we just don't do that in our family. We just don't. We just don't. Tried to keep it very matter of fact, and like some people like blue, some people like red, we just don't do that in our family. It is going to be hard.

The digital thing, the phone is going to be really-- You mentioned Star Wars earlier. We haven't seen Star Wars, and I feel like-- I want to. I want to show because in some ways, I feel like it's a kid's movie. It's not quite that young. We watch a lot of movies but we're very careful about what's too scary or what's-- I just don't want to have those conversations about things blowing up and there's people inside. I just don't want too--

That seems like a difficult thing to do, but that same maturity is going to creep into their behaviors outside of the home, and I really don't know what we're going to do about a phone. We've got iPads, but I guess the older one has her own iPad. That was a gift from grandma. The younger one has one of the older ones that we don't use anymore, but it's supervised. Lately, it's been very little, but the idea of-- My daughter was talking about-- I guess it was a watch. She described it, it sounded like it did all the things like an Apple watch, but it wasn't an Apple watch.

Dave: Oh, yes, I know exactly which watch, and I know exactly which kid you're talking about.

Jim: I don't know which kid it is but yes.

Dave: We had the conversation too.

Jim: The one where it flips up and they could call their mom and dad. That's one of the things with, "So-and-so has it," or, "This is what I want." In some ways yes, I want to be able to-- I want the find a friend thing or the tracker thing. I want to be able to put something on your wrist that I can look up and know exactly where you are, sure or give you a lifeline. If you're ever in any trouble, you can get in touch with me. Again, at this age, it's not like she's going to be at a party or something. She's at home.

Dave: Or running around on the town without you.

Jim: I think what is going to happen it's going to be second-period recess, and she's going to call up, and "Are you going to pick me up today? Bring some juice."

Dave: The thing that I am mostly concerned about with the phone, which I think makes it such a tricky issue is that unlike juice or clothes or something like that, the phone-- If everybody has a phone and your kid doesn't, they're going to feel left out because everyone is going to [crosstalk]--

Jim: Yes. I was remembering kids that I grew up with, there was three or four of them that did not watch TV, did not have TV in their home, and it made them a little weird. In the playground, you want to talk about the Dukes of Hazard and Knight Rider or whatever, and they didn't know what they were talking about. In hindsight, as an adult, those were some of the most well-adjusted people I knew. That's what you're talking about, that fine line of where's the normal socialization and where do we draw the lines as parents?

Dave: Certainly, I think the other slippery slope now then becomes if you do have a device, it's now everybody moving onto social media sites. That's then a whole nother can of worms that I'm not-- At this point, our kids aren't even, I think, eligible to be on Facebook or Twitter or anything like that. Doesn't mean that they wouldn't figure out a way of doing it.

I think that's where things are going to get really hairy. It feels like those conversations are going to be happening sooner rather than later, and that we are going to be dragged into them, whether or not we want to be. It's likely going to be from families who have two kids whose youngest is the same age as our oldest because that's just how everything goes. The older kids sets things up, fights the fight. By the time the second rolls in, it's like--

Jim: They get all [unintelligible 00:06:34]

Dave: All right, fine. Our kids in the grade that they're in now, whether or not that's going to start happening next year, it feels like the slippery slope-- It feels like the introduction has-- The door has started to crack open this year.

Jim: Yes. I know what you mean. It wasn't something we thought about last year.

Dave: Yes, and it feels like it's going to come up much sooner than we're ready for. In my head, I'm like, "We're not going to need to have this conversation until she's 11."

Jim: Yes. Right.

Dave: I think that by the time she's 11, there are probably going to be kids that have had their phone for a couple of years at that point. At this point, I don't think we're going to be one of those kids, but then you have this constant back and forth. I'm not looking forward to that, to say the least.

Jim: The thing that strikes me about all this is that there's going to be a parallel social situation. There's going to be the interaction that you have with friends at school, and then some of those people are going to be having interactions online outside of school. That's going to be totally opaque, and you're not going to know what's going on there, unless you're part of that conversation. That grade school FOMO could be paralyzing.

Dave: That is almost the only argument I might be able to make for giving her a device before I'm ready is simply that, do you want your kid-- Yes, it's the balance of holding the line because you're maybe concerned about-- It also opens the Pandora's box, I guess. It opens the door potentially to bullying and all sorts of things that kids might not do in person, but that they might feel that they can get away with. Once they know your handle, then they create a burner account and a throwaway account to just harass you. It is certainly not something I'm looking forward to.

Jim: I know. Well, I think we've got it on our list of things to talk about and maybe get Tim in on this conversation too because it's over the horizon, but it's coming fast. There have been some news stories, not recently but in the last couple of years about suicides, about kids that end up in suicides just from the cyberbullying, and that is just heartbreaking, and just abhorrent that that's part of childhood these days. No phones today.

Dave: I don't even know what to say about it. I'm trying to think, what are the other super crazy things that we're going to have to deal with this as parents? It feels like that's going to be the biggest one.

Jim: I think so too.

Dave: I almost feel like questions about, "Oh, can you date or not date?" almost feel like nothing compared to the introduction of a device.

Jim: Yes. That's the thing. You can meet that kid, you can know their parents. There's something about it that's above board or on this side of the screen. All that other stuff that's behind the screen and behind closed doors, so to speak, that's under the surface. You know what I'm saying. It's online. It's out of sight. That's the stuff that's more terrifying.

Dave: Yes, I was, it was funny. I was telling my daughter this morning because she's having a bad day. She's had this awkward situation with some friends. The kids at this age are still-- The relationships are still volatile. They can be best friends today, and then some minor offense sends them spiraling into enemies for the next 24 hours. Then they come back and everything's hunky dory.

I was telling my daughter, my best friend for eight years, I can still remember two fights that we had. The first one, I think it was in first grade. I went over to his house and we were playing matchbox cars and he wouldn't let me be the matchbox car I wanted to be. I'm like, "Dude, these are your matchbox cars. You can be them any time that you want." I remember my parents couldn't show up fast enough to pick me up for that. I was just done with the play date.

It was actually an overnight. I'm like, "Get me out of here." The other one, which would she enjoyed because we were talking about Star Wars. We were just talking about Star Wars. I was telling her. This was also, I don't know, maybe third grade or something. Star Wars is out and we were playing Star Wars and I wanted to be Luke, and he wanted to be Han. Again, legit Star Wars, the original Star Wars, not the prequels and the sequels. The OG Star Wars.

Jim: The OG.

Dave: Yes. There's only two of us playing and we needed a Darth Vader, and no one wanted to be the bad guy. I very distinctly remember him, my best friend, going around to all of our friends saying, "Don't be friends with Dave," because no one wanted to be Darth Vader. I remember we were just-- It was the end of the world. We were just like, "I'm never going to talk to you again." I think by the time recess was over, it had blown over, but it was literally we were actively campaigning--

Jim: "You're dead to me."

Dave: Yes. We were actively campaigning against each other. Those are the things that I would prefer we have to deal with than figure out devices but yes. The other thing I feel like with this age is that they are able to maintain their relationships a little bit more permanently, I guess. I don't know if this is the same with your daughter, but when ours was pre-K three, four, and even kindergarten, the relationships were purely based on who was in your class. You'd make your friends there, and then the next year it was a clean slate, you start all over again. I'm starting to see the kids developing these threads, even with kids that aren't in their class. I guess that's good and bad. Have you guys ever interceded to get your child placed in a class, or not, with her friends or try to avoid kids or anything like that?

Jim: No, we wrestled with that and ultimately, we decided that if things went south and we had intervened then it was our problem. If we tried to arrange, relationships and being in the same class or whatever, and then something went sideways, then it was our fault. It was much easier to think the school knows what they're doing. They know how to match up kids and personalities and developmental levels and intellect and things like that. I'm going to trust that they get it right. There were a couple of times where, at least twice then, when we really weren't happy with the teacher that our kid was assigned to, but we bit our tongue and let it go.

It turned out really well both times. They turned out to just be outstanding teachers, great relationships with our daughters, and I'm glad we didn't interfere and say, "We don't want her in this class with this teacher. We want her paired up with this person." I think the school had actually reached out to us about that, "Do you have any preferences one way or the other?" I'm trying to remember why that was true, but ultimately we decided no, we're going to let the school-- We're going to trust that the school knows what they're doing.

Dave: It was funny because it never even occurred to me to intercede until somebody-- I think I was having a conversation with another parent in maybe first grade. My daughter had been at the school for three years at that point. I was like, "What? People actually do--?" It didn't even occur to me. It felt clear to me that this parent had been actively moving her kid around. At that point, I don't know how much she knew the teachers, so I think it was mostly to maintain certain relationships that her son was having with other kids.

Yes, we have never thought about it. We had a conversation about it. I think our mindset is it's healthy for them to be split up anyway, to have to-- Especially at that age. Right? To have to be forced to make friends right every year, but I will say it feels to me like the last two years, in particular, that her classmates-- I don't know these kids for the most part. I used to do a lot of volunteering in the classroom, so I know a lot of the kids.

I'm like, "Who are all these kids?" Actually last year, in particular, there was only one or two kids that she had been in class with. Having gone on the first field trip of the year last year, which if anybody has the opportunity, highly recommend going on field trips because you can see the interactions, but it was interesting to see the cliques that had formed so early on. It was clear there was a big group of girls that had known each other.

It was, I don't know, five or six girls that were all in this one big clique. Then my daughter and a couple of other girls. There was one girl that went in and out. Also just seeing the boy cliques and everything, because at this age there's still a lot of gender separated cliques, but yes, I've always felt like it's been important for her to have to restart. That's the parent in me because I remember when I was at school, you would always wait for the list to come out and hope that you're in the same class with your best friend.

I actually had been in the same class with my best friend for, I think, eight out of nine years, and my parents never intervened. I don't think his parents did either. I think just somehow we-- Statistically speaking, that should not happen, but somehow we ended up together the whole time. Yes, I think it's important for her to have to learn to make those friendships, but as I'm seeing the downside, of course, is that if there's already a lot of existing cliques when she shows up, it can be difficult to break into those clique.

Sometimes the clique can be just two kids. With two, if one wants to exclude your daughter, that's tough versus a clique of like five or six or seven, where if one person wants to exclude, there's still a bunch of other kids within that circle. I feel like I'm noticing some of that, but I think that still, ultimately, that lesson of having to reestablish those friendships or on the positive side to maintain friendships, even though you're not in the same class is important.

Jim: Exactly. Yes. Keep one silver, the other's gold. Right? Keep the good relationships to make more relationships. You were talking about being in the class with your best friend. Do I want to intercede, as you said, to make sure that happens? I don't because I'm not suggesting that they'd be codependent, but if you're in a relationship with a special friend and you're in a class with 20 strangers, I would be very drawn to spend time with that kid and not only-- Not in a monopolistic way, but it would be an easy crutch to not have to, as you say, go out and make new friends. Why not? Your best friend [unintelligible 00:18:31]--

It's funny because we try not to use that because-- If somebody's got a best friend, that automatically means that the other friends aren't. In a weird way, it's exclusionary, but there is such a thing as a best friend, right? You had one, I had a best friend growing up. To have that person in the class may work out, like I just said, or have them in a separate class, they keep that relationship. They're not tied down to it, so to speak, and could make new friends.

I think that's better. I think that's a better way to go. My older sister is a military brat. She moved all over the place before she was in sixth grade or so, fifth or sixth grade. Thankfully, my brother and I didn't have to do that, but I think it gives somebody some social skills that you wouldn't have otherwise. I'm sure it was painful for her at the time, but learning that skill of making new relationships every year I think is valuable.

Dave: As I look back on my higher education college grad school, I always felt like the-- I don't know if regret is the right word, but if I had to do it over again, I feel like I would have tried to make more relationships. I feel like you make a lot of these relationships your freshman year or whatever grad school first year, and then those are the ones that you stick through for the next two to four years. I do look back on that thinking, "I probably should have tried more to make more friends." I think maybe this is in part as a reaction to that of saying, "Hey, I think that's a valuable skill. Maybe one that I wished that I had done more of that."

I don't know that I ever thought about it actually, until I just said it in that way. I don't know. I think it's in line with a lot of these life skills that we're just trying to teach our kids, right? It's that, that's what's going to happen. I think also just generally speaking, there's always this transition when you leave, in particular education, to figuring out now how to make friends, because education there's an easy--

You've got classes or extracurriculars and whatever, so that's among the easiest. You don't really recognize that until you're out on your own, especially if you've moved away. I went to school on the East Coast and certainly from college, nobody moved back here. Actually, I don't even know that I had any friends from the West Coast in college. My school was predominantly East Coast kids, which in and of itself, is quite an interesting dichotomy.

I'd never realized how different people in the East Coast were until I went there. I think that having those skills to be able to move in and out and make friendships easily, in particular when you've entered the business world is valuable, simply because it's just harder to make friends after you've left the education environment. It's just a different world. There certainly are ways. If you're a social butterfly, it's a little bit easier.

If you're an introvert or sometimes you just don't have the avenues-- Maybe you work in a small company, a startup, or maybe you just work for a bunch of people you don't want to know outside the office. The question then is, "How do you make those friendships?" I think it is again, one of those life skills that hopefully they'll be a little bit more prepared for, just simply by the fact of having had to jump in and out when they were younger.

Jim: I remember somebody told me when I graduated college, "This is the last time that you're going to be surrounded with a group of your peers until you're in a retirement home."

Dave: [laughs]

Jim: When you're in school, everyone's the same age, you're doing the same things. You've got something in common, you're going to the same school, probably doing the same activities and then-- You're right, that's a whole other topic, how do you make friends as an adult? That's a skill that you don't realize you have or you need, or it even is a skill until you need it.

Dave: Yes, like everything, you've got to practice and you've got to apply-- Hopefully, this lays the groundwork for that. The payoff will be in 20 years from now. We'll ask our kids in 20 years, "How did that work out for you?" [laughs] Let's see if we were right about it. We're playing the long game.

Jim: Right.

Dave: We hope you enjoyed this conversation about parenting. If you'd like to support the podcast and hear more discussions around fatherhood, please subscribe and drop us a review. If you have any questions, hit us up on the Facebook page, facebook.com/papaestfatigue, that's P-A-P-A-E-S-T-F-A-T-I-G-U-E. Thanks for listening.

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