In today’s episode Jim and Dave freestyle their thoughts on fatherhood.

During this episode we’ll discuss:

• How we carve out little time for the kids

• Boys vs girls and trying to raise a gender-neutral child

• Personality traits our oldest daughters are starting to show

• Using school pick up and drop off to squeeze out a little more quality time with the kids

• Our favorite ages for the kids  

If you like what you heard, please consider subscribing, writing a review, and sharing the podcast on social media.

Transcript 

[music]

Dave: Hi everyone, welcome to the Papa est Fatigué podcast the podcast for dads by dads today, we're doing something a little bit different. Our normal podcasts are planned out in advance with a really specific theme, but after we're done recording, we always end up continuing the conversation and jumping around from topic to topic. This episode is part of a series we're calling Musings on Fatherhood to give you just a little bit of info, I'm Dave, I have a four-year-old son and a seven year old daughter and my co-host Jim has two girls, a five-year-old and a seven-year-old. We're going to jump right in with our discussion on how we try and handle our work-life balance.

Whenever there are studies about what people regret on their deathbeds. The number one thing is always, I regret not having spent more time with my family and when I had kids, I'm like, you know what? I will have regrets in life, but that will not be one of them. I guarantee that will not be one of them. Now, that being said, like right now, things are tough. I got all balls in the air and like, I spend way less time than I would want to with the kids, but I can still look myself in the mirror and say, I'm still spending a good amount of time with them and I'm spending quality time with them. That was always one of those things. I will not be one of those parents that looks in the mirror and says, I've wasted time here at the office.

Jim: It was hard for me early on because I did particularly working for myself and like a lot of people when I work for myself, like I'm always working, even when I'm not and I should be working or I should be where there's got this thing that's knocking on my head. I learned to deal with that early on by setting some boundaries and schedules like from one to five I'm working on this project, but then from five to late, that's just family time.

Even so I was, and it wasn't a resentment, but it was like an anxiety that the time that I was spending with my daughters was time that I wasn't making money. Not that I'm like particularly greedy or money hungry, it was an honest concern I don't, but when you work for yourself, that's just the way it is. As I'm sure you know and I wanted to make sure, and I let that go after a while and then made sure that what I was doing, like that's what I was doing right now in any moment in the same way that I had my schedule.

Where I would do block out time for work and the block out time for not work and make sure that I was really not working during those times on some macro scale, I feel like I've done the same thing. At this period of my life, for these several years, particularly in COVID, since it's been such a big deal, like that's what I'm doing. I'm spending time with my family and I'm not going to let myself get pulled away and I'm probably not making as much money as I could, but that's okay. That's totally okay for what I'm getting out of it.

Dave: There was something I was thinking about to ask you as I was preparing for the podcast the other day, but I'm curious as to how you grew up. When I was younger, both my parents worked, my dad actually worked. He had an hour and a half commute, I think at the time. I remember when I was young, when he would drop me off school would start at 8:15. I would be at school like seven o'clock it's like me and the security guard.

There would be times that I would beat the security guard to school and I'm hanging out by myself back then it was safe and our school was in this enclosed area. There wasn't a problem, but I remember like he would drop me off super early and then my mom would pick me up and my mom also worked quite a bit. She was a VP my dad was a CFO.

These were people that were high functioning jobs and just were doing a lot of work. I guess when my brother was born or no, when I was born, my dad he had an overseas assignment and my mom was concerned that like, when he came back, I wouldn't remember. I think I was like a year old. I think she did something like she made a doll so that I would like with his face on or something like that.

[laughter]

I guess I'm curious. My parents were very busy, but I never felt like they weren't there for me. There was certainly a time when my brother was born. Who's six years younger than me. My mom was, she was freelancing I remember she was at home and watching my brother and working, and then I would come home. My parents were always busy and I never felt like they weren't there for me. I was just curious about what your situation was like growing up.

Jim: In some ways, I'm really glad that I don't have a son. Especially since I don't have a firstborn son, because I think that I would be reevaluating or reviewing or revisiting my childhood and my relationship with my dad, somehow, that would influence the way that I'd be parenting my son. There's something about having a daughter. I've no idea what it's like to be a daughter.

I don't know what it's like to be a girl. I don't know what a father-daughter relationship is like, because you know from a daughter perspective, so it's something new and something new that I can shape, but there are some parallels in becoming a parent that and seeing for example I just love my daughter so much. People say like you're a good dad are still engaged, whatever it's not important because it came from a place that was so deep and so instinctual that without having my daughters be able to have that for me to have that pure relationship with my daughters without thinking, am I doing the same things that my dad did? Am I not making- second guessing all that stuff from my own relationship with my dad. To answer your question, we talked about the first sibling and the second sibling maybe the second sibling or the first sibling not getting as much attention when the newborn came around.

I was thinking about it tonight and then from our, a couple of other podcasts and remembering my childhood, like I'm a middle child that was born like a day before Christmas.

[laughter]

There's a whole lot of things that just that you get the firstborn attention but regardless it was when you ask about the relationship, my growing up, my dad was a pilot. He was gone three or four days at a time, just about every single week. Then when he was not flying, he had his own practice. He basically had two full-time jobs. I did not get to spend a lot of time with him, but it still, he showed up for the games. He made sure that he showed up for the games and he was there for the special events and the band rehearsal or whatever. He definitely went out of his way to be involved in those moments as a second child, but there's something to that. There's something about that I feel very fortunate that, or blessed, I guess if that's the right word that I do get to spend so much time with my daughters in a way that I hadn't seen before.

Dave: It almost feels like, as you think about your daughter, it's having that clean slate with no sense of like this is what I should do, or this is what my dad did. When you guys found out you were pregnant, or I guess even before that, did you have a preference for this, the gender of your child?

Jim: That's funny. I didn't think I did until I did. Of course I don't care. It's going to be great. I didn't have a preference until we went to the ultrasound for the first one. We said, it was a girl and I had this, like just this moment of disappointment. Then it was over. I did, and that told me that I had a preference that I wasn't actually acknowledging.

Dave: What a funny way to learn that you had a preference.

[laughter]

I always wanted a girl.

Jim: I'm so glad we have girls by the way, no regrets

Dave: Girls are great. I wanted a girl, my wife wanted a girl, my mom who always wanted to girl never had one girl. Thankfully we got that out of the way, right out the gate. Then everybody it's true that as long as your baby is healthy, you really don't care. There's like that little piece of you that might have a preference. Then after we had our first one, we were like, wow, wouldn't it be great if we had one of each and then you could just see the differences but I am also curious as to again, what the relationship is like between sisters. I have a brother. I understand the brother relationship and they're all a little bit different.

That doesn't mean that all brother relationships are like that, but I understand that it is interesting seeing the boy girl relationship. I remember when our daughter was born, I'm like I'm not going to adhere to gender norms. I'm going to buy her a dump truck. Just because she's a girl doesn't mean she could play. She never touched that dump truck.

Jim: You mentioned in the podcast, I was going to tell a story about a friend of mine who wanted to be gender neutral. We bought toy cars for the daughter and he bought dolls for the boys. They both had the stuff to play with and he went into the room and that the daughter had turned the trucks over on their backs and tuck them in with the little blankets. Meanwhile, the boy was taking the dolls and driving them around together and like. Seeing the difference between the two, I don't get to see that because I have two daughters, but I hear it's really, really innate.

Dave: It's funny how they just, they settle into things. He played with the dump truck, he, as I mentioned before he plays with dolls too, although that was more of a phase, there does seem to be this innate preference, at least in some kids for certain things. He has absolutely embraced like the whole, construction thing, Oh, dump truck, fire truck. He just loves that. It's funny. There's like, no matter how hard you try to be like it doesn't need to be this way. Some kids just they will take you in whatever direction they want to go in and then you just follow along and okay, well, I try, but that kid certainly doesn't want to do that.

Jim: That's one of those things that give me a lot of comfort as a parent to see that's like, I'm not making that stuff happen. I just got to get out of the way and I'm not going to jack that up so long as I just get out of the way.

Dave: I remember my mom always said, kids are born with personalities. There's only so much you as a parent can do to either screw that up or to change it. Like they are who they are and we're just in some respects, we're just the hanging on and--

Jim: We're just custodians.

Dave: We hope to maybe steer them a little bit, but at the end of the day they're the ones driving the car and we can backseat drive a little bit, but they're going to do what they're going to do. Hopefully they move at least in the general direction that we would prefer they move in, but those kids-- You can see it early on you've talked a little bit about how the differences that you see in your daughter's personalities, I think showed themselves at an early age in terms of how they're different. I don't know that our kids necessarily, I've seen strong personality traits from the beginning, but there are certainly things that you see over time and how they develop despite the fact that in the same household, same parents, the same everything. You get lucky or you don't, I guess.

Jim: The personality traits are interesting. The older one from being at school they were talking, it was like, "She's really a perfectionist." Like, "She won't-- " We're like, "What?" Like there's nothing. Don't look at us we didn't do anything about that. We're not chastising her for mistakes or anything like that. It's just innate, it's something part of our personality that just is there.

Dave: I mentioned this in a previous podcast. I don't remember which one, but if you ever have the opportunity to volunteer in your child's school or to go on a field trip. I did a lot of those in my first two years and it's just so interesting to see them interacting with each other and which kids are playing with which kids and how they're playing with each other and just the dynamics that the teachers see every day. In some respects those teachers, they really know your kid better than you do because they see the child without the parents tall hovering over them. With our kids they know what's expected at home and it's not that they don't know what's expected at school, but I think they can play it a little faster and looser sometimes at school. Because they're not-- At home there's only so far you can go where I don't know what's going on.

There's only so many rooms in the house. You can't get that far away without me knowing what's going on. Whereas at school they are who they are and we really never get to see that. I always liked to go, especially to the first field trip of the year, especially as kids get mixed up in the course of the year. You also start to see-- I remember the first field trip that we did in last year's school year. Last year our daughter was in a class with a bunch of people that she really had interacted with. To just see how she handled that situation where obviously most of these kids have been together and they might see each other in the playground, but certainly some of them had been friends before and had been in classes before to see how she navigates that and makes friends.

At this stage what I find to be interesting is how kids go in and out of friendships based on who's in their class. I feel like last year was the first year where relationships extended beyond just that first class. In pre-K3 they're just friends with their kids and when they moved to pre-K4 whoever was in their class in pre-K3 that's not in their pre-K4 class. It's like, they're gone. They're not even at school anymore. They just every year they reset. I think last year to me was the first year where those relationships carried over from one class to another. It was interesting to see how their ability to maintain relationships had progressed beyond just the out of sight, out of mind aspect. Again, you don't always, I think see those-- Just being a parent some of that requires you to pick a child up and see who they're playing with at the end of the day. Or being in the classroom and just see who they're playing with or observing a recess if possible. Those things they're so fascinating to see how your kid is adjusting or getting along or not getting along.

Jim: Well, we talked in the second child podcast about, or I did about the public persona and seeing when my daughters are around other people, particularly around other kids or other parents they're the same person obviously, but they just have a different demeanor and a different presence. It was like you did the field trips. My favorite part of the day was at pickup and I'd show up maybe a little bit early and I'd hang back and we'd just wait for her to notice me and then just get to watch her play with the other kids. That was a really precious lens into that public persona and that school persona that, like you say, we wouldn't get to see otherwise.

The Parent-Teacher Conference we've got coming up and I've got some questions about how can we get books and things like that. My, up until now, and probably for this year and maybe next year as well, my primary concern and my primary question, how are they doing? How are their social relationships? How are they in the classroom? Are they kind? Are they making friends? Are they being of service and things like that? That's the thing that we don't get to see other than through the parents' eyes or just through those brief windows like at pickup time.

Dave: It's funny you mentioned the pickup time. Because I absolutely do the same thing. I love the pickup and I love to come in and just observe and just wait until she sees me when just watching her running around, playing with her friends. It's fascinating to just see that interaction that we don't-- Even play dates are different. It's just that school environment obviously when they're in school it's such a unique experience to be able to just have a little bit of peak even if it's just a few minutes. I think again, we talk about those moments of being present and just taking it all in and I think that's one of those things. One of the things that I always like to do actually with school is I think I've mentioned this before on other episodes is, at our school you can drop off at the curb or pick up at the curb.

I always look for parking because that's just maybe it's a five minute walk to the car and back each way, but that's 10 minutes of just unfettered one-on-one time where you talk about the day and that has always been a special part for me. I think it was last year, the year before I did all the pickups and the drop-offs because I was like, "I enjoy it." I guess I did all the pickups and drop offs for one child. Actually that's how it worked. It's just a nice way because there's nothing else to do. There's no other distractions. It's just you're focused on the child and again, if we go back to where we started with this whole, like, the one thing I don't want to regret is not having spent enough time with my child.

It can be daunting to figure out how to find time when we're all so busy. I guess I would say that sometimes it's just carving out five or 10 minutes, this is, I think what we're going to be doing it in a little later podcast episode, but talking about the study that shows that it's how you spend the time with the children. It's quality versus the quantity of time that you spend. 10 minutes of unfettered one-on-one time is worth more than 30 minutes of like, I'm talking to you, but I'm checking emails at the same time, or I'm somewhat distracted--

[crosstalk]

If you can commit, or at least what I've done is at least committing to walking her. Because it doesn't really take that much extra time, it's an extra, whatever, 10 minutes a day and maybe trying to find a parking space it's worth it to me to have just that little bit of time that's just carved out for us. Hopefully, when we get back to school I'll be able to do that with my son because we really haven't been able to do that this year. This is his first year in a real school. Because at preschool you could literally just park in front and there was no point walking the kid [chuckles] it's right from the school.

Jim: Just going to carry him anyway.

Dave: Yes. That was the point too. It's like, he's not really spending the whole time walking. It's going to take like 20 times longer if you park at the end of the block [chuckles] just walk with him. Those are those just the daily living in the moment opportunities to interact with your child and you see how's school going? What are the challenges that you're-- Is your kid getting bullied? Just those little moments of just checking in and having that quality time because it doesn't need to be some grand gesture. You don't need to carve out an hour a day. That would be great if you can, but it's difficult as we all have jobs and just all the other stuff that happens in life. Again, it's just find this bite-sized pieces and I certainly feel that I have a better relationship with her because of that. Just finding those little moments.

Jim: Same. Walking to and from daycare, precious time, bedtime stories, times when I can really be present, those are that mindfulness I think is really important.

Dave: Well, look sooner rather than later, our kids might be taking the bus to school.

Jim: Yes. They're not going to want to hang out with us either, you know.

Dave: We're running out of time, we're going to be the uncool dads pretty soon. Right now it works.

Jim: Have you seen Eighth Grade?

Dave: No.

Jim: That's an interesting movie.

Dave: It's going to scare me.

Jim: It's totally uncomfortable. It feels like being in eighth grade, but any other daughter is a pretty hostile to the father and in a way that previews teenage years. We're going to get there sooner or later.

Dave: Yes. I'm nervous about that. Actually, one thing that I always thought with girls was we had time and as I talked to other parents, they're like, no, they start changing at 11. Things get incredibly more complicated at 11. Well, that's the interesting thing about kids. Every stage, there's just constant changing of stages. You get happy with one and then you talked about this. You get happy with one and boom, it's a new stage and new challenges to deal with. It's a learning process throughout. It's going to be an interesting ride as they get older for sure.

Jim: It is an interesting ride.

Dave: Now, so actually here's the question. Do you have a favorite age?

Jim: Yes, I do. But I'd have to, it's probably about like three maybe four, maybe even two and a half, I'm not entirely sure. But there was a time when it's like their personality started to come out and they had enough mobility and enough agency in the world, but they weren't quite yet. The things that I hadn't think, things really weren't all entirely formed, I guess. I'm not sure what I'm driving at, but there was a time where, and maybe that I'll just say it that way. There was a time when their personality started to come out. That's what it is. Their personality started to come out, but before they could figure out like social norms, it was really sweet. It was just a pure experience, maybe like two and a half, three, maybe three and a half. I'm not entirely sure.

Dave: I certainly feel like maybe up to four, the constant changes are very interesting. Because they're changing so quickly and so dramatically from not being able to turn over, turn over and crawling, walking and then as you point out, their personality starts coming out. Then when they're their first words and they're able to start communicating with you. Then once they start really being able to communicate deeper emotions and context and then running and jumping and all these things. There's this funny thing where I remember telling my daughter, I was like, our son, if you ask him to touch his hands over his head, he can't do it yet because his arms aren't long enough to get over there. It just blew her mind. She's like, what? She asked him to raise his hands, and he couldn't touch his hands above his head.

As they're just growing into their bodies. But I feel like things are progressing so quickly and so dramatically up until maybe about four and things are just slowing down. There are still things that are happening, but I think it just feels like it's a little bit harder to notice. Certainly when the kids were younger and people would ask me about parenting, I would always say that every age is my favorite because there was always something so incredibly new that you're discovering along the way. I guess maybe certainly with the second one, it's a little bit harder just because again, you've been through all of these phases and so you know what to expect, but I feel like maybe around on a four or five, it's not quite a plateau, but it just feels like the changes aren't as dramatic and they last longer.

Jim: The stages are longer.

Dave: Right. I guess maybe part of what I liked about that is that they were both so fleeting, but at the same time when you're in it, it feels like forever. That dichotomy and those moments were just--

Jim: More days, short years.

Dave: Right. But it's so fun to see the process. Because just as soon as you got settled in, bam, something threw it all over, and so now you're learning something new. That was really interesting. I don't want to say these ages aren't interesting, but there is certain also I think something that you mentioned also about like, at 7, you can have these great conversations with the kids as their mental faculties have developed to the kinds of questions they ask you are interesting as they started to understand about the world around them. Again, there's something interesting about this age too.

Hopefully there will always be something interesting and that, when our daughters and sons, or our son are 16 and 17 and 18, we're not going to be like, well, it's more of a drag than anything else. I guess that's part of the process. We won't know until we get there. It's, how rewarding to see the whole thing happened to just be along for the ride. I guess.

Jim: That's a good description. We're along for the ride. It's their show. I'm just here.

Dave: My favorite response would be like, how's it going? This is even pre-COVID as I'm like, look, I'm just hanging on. I'm trying to not get thrown off of like the merry-go-round of life that is [unintelligible 00:25:43] I'm just making sure to hold on. Because that's what it feels with kids sometimes it's just, they're trying to throw you off and you just, you're trying to stay on, but it's fun and it's far more rewarding than the downside, at least for now.

We hope you enjoyed this conversation about parenting. If you'd like to support the podcast and hear more discussions around fatherhood, please subscribe and drop us a review. If you have any questions, hit us up on the Facebook page. Facebook.Com/papaestfatigue that's P-A-P-A-E-S-T-F-A-T-I-G-U-E. Thanks for listening.

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