In today’s episode Dave and Jim discuss their philosophies on extracurricular activities and what activities their kids are involved in.

During this episode we’ll discuss:

• What kids of extracurriculars we did growing up

• Our philosophy on extracurricular activities

• When I kids started in after-school programs

• What after-school activities we did pre-COVID

• What extracurriculars we’re doing now

If you like what you heard, please consider subscribing, writing a review, and sharing the podcast on social media.

Resources:

• School Engagement Higher for Children Involved in Extracurricular Activities

• 8 In 10 Parents Think Kids’ Extracurricular Activities May One Day Lead To Income

Transcript 

[music]

Dave: In today's episode we're discussing extracurricular activities, our philosophy around the role of extracurricular activities and what extracurriculars our kids are enrolled in.

[music]

Dave: Hey, everyone, welcome to the Papa est Fatigué podcast, the podcast for dads by dads. The pandemic has obviously thrown a wrench into the school year, but the other thing that has been impacted are our kids’ extracurricular activities. For most of the pandemic, my daughter has been asking when she'll be able to go back to her swimming lessons. Now that we appear to be turning the corner with vaccinations, we're starting to think about what our post-pandemic extracurriculars will look like. Today we're discussing extracurricular activities. First of all, here's my deal. I'm Dave, I have a four-year-girl—I have a seven-year-old girl and a four-year-old boy.

Jim: I'm Jim, I've got a seven-year-old girl and a five-year-old girl.

Dave: In doing some of the research for this episode, we found a report from the US Census Bureau which showed that children tend to have higher levels of school engagement when they're involved in one or more activities like sports, clubs or lessons. 42% of children who took lessons were highly engaged in school, compared to 33% of children who did not. The Census Survey also found that 42% of school-age children were involved in sports, 30% were involved in lessons, and 28% were involved in clubs, 9% of children participated in all three types of extracurriculars.

Jim, when I was growing up, extracurriculars weren't really a thing in my school. Maybe that's a function of I went to a very small school and there weren't a lot of school-sponsored activities, but I'm wondering what, if any, extracurriculars you did growing up?

Jim: If we're talking about elementary school, it's funny, and thinking about this, I was trying to remember what it was that my friends did, because I know what I did. What I did is we had a CYO, a Catholic Youth Organization. Basketball is something that we did after school, Cub Scouts. I know that there were girls and Girl Scouts. There might have been other things organized through the school, but I don't really remember. Those were pretty much the things that I did.

My brother did something similar. My sister did some other sporting things for after school, but that wasn't until later. I guess for my experience, a little bit of sports. My brother did the Cub Scouts, I didn't. Nothing really organized through school. I don't know if it was a cultural thing throughout the school. I just know about my experience. It's interesting, maybe there were more extracurricular activities that I just didn't know the kids were doing.

Dave: You mentioned that was specifically for elementary school, but did you do anything through middle and high school?

Jim: Yes, I played music. I was in a jazz band through the school. We had evening concerts and performances after school practice sometimes. I played basketball through high school. I worked with a video production, what do you call it? [unintelligible 00:03:09] It was a work study thing through the school, we learned how to use video cameras, work in the studio and stuff. I guess that was an extracurricular. Yes, that's it.

Dave: That's actually quite a lot, it’s a of stuff. [laughs] What instrument did you play? I'm curious. I didn't know you played instruments.

Jim: I played saxophone. I haven't played in years, but it's funny, a couple of times I have picked one up and it's just like riding a bike, they say. It's all in there somewhere. Some type of weird muscle memory.

Dave: Is it really? Do the girls know that you can play?

Jim: They do, yes. They never heard me, but every time there's a saxophone in a song, they're like, "Hey, dad, it's a saxophone."

Dave: [laughs] On my end, it's funny, again, talking about the size of school, and you made me think about something which is, again, small school in the high school, it was like 100 kids, we couldn't even fill the co-ed baseball team. There was not enough interest taking a baseball team. My friend really, really tried. He really wanted to pull that off. I feel like, I don’t know, just in growing up, it just didn't feel like kids were doing a lot of stuff outside of school.

When I was younger, I was in the Boys Chorus, which was a great experience. We toured Europe and we toured domestically and we did pro sporting events and we sang for visiting dignitaries. That was a really great experience. Then when I was in high school, I was playing ice hockey. I started in ninth grade, which is fairly late, I think, for sport like that. I played four years ice hockey in high school.

With the exception of maybe one of my friends who played baseball and football, I can't think of anybody, at least in my group, that did anything outside of school. I guess there was one guy who was in a bowling league, but that was about it. I feel like it just wasn't maybe a thing when we were growing up as much as it is these days where everybody's doing everything all the time, starting from, whatever, two years old.

Jim: Yes, we had a lot of unstructured time. I compare my childhood to the childhoods that I see now, that we'd get out of school at three o'clock. If we did have extracurricular, maybe it was two days a week, so we had a lot of unstructured time between three and five or six o'clock when mom and dad would come home from work. We found ways to entertain ourselves, play with our friends. I did a lot of mountain biking when I was in junior high in high school. I spent a lot of time outdoors. I think you're right. I think it may be a generational thing and that there are more extracurricular activities. I know that they, what's the phrase? The curated childhood. The parents are so involved in getting just the right extracurricular and just the right extra experience for their kids in just the right way.

I think that's a little heavy-handed, and maybe that's part of my experience. I think there should be some unstructured time. My philosophy, I guess, is that it should be something that she, both of them really want to do and that it's going to improve their well-being one way or another. We talked earlier about the language and about how that you can really get that in an early age. There's some other things, like physical education, that they should probably learn now.

Dave: You said something I thought was really interesting because it provides a segue in terms of how the parents are involved in this process. Again, in doing the research for the podcast, this report that I found from LendingTree, they found that 8 in 10 parents who have children who participate in extracurriculars, those parents think that those pursuits could someday lead to income for their child. I think a very interesting way of determining what kinds of activities they want their children to get involved in.

Of those people that responded to that survey, 62% were in debt for their child's activity, which that is crazy, right? That feels very extreme. Sports teams were the most popular, 30%, music 16%. I'm going to blame that on the rise of all these music competition shows on TV. Dance at 15, gymnastics 12, 9% to cheerleading, 8% martial arts. Beauty pageants and debate team, 3% each. I don't know how many people are using those as a stepping stone to greater income, but I suppose both beauty pageants and debate team have their uses in future jobs in their own specific ways.

Jim: Could be. When I read this, and I read 8 in 10, and my jaw hit the floor. That seems overly optimistic, isn't it? When we're talking about ballet, swimming, it's going to lead to income? It's hard for me to believe.

Dave: I thought that was substantial. It's from LendingTree, so understanding the background, they commissioned somebody else to do this. I don't think, at least from what I read, they weren't talking to LendingTree clients. There was some level of variation in terms of who they're talking, but that felt high.

Jim: Yes, that seems delusional.

Dave: [laughs] That did feel like, "All right. Well, if I pay for football for my kid, they're going to be an NFL athlete." That feels like that's not likely to happen. I don't know. Everybody's got their own take on how they choose their extracurriculars. You'd started to touch on your philosophy about extracurriculars and you were talking about the whole person education. How else do you think about the types of activities that you guys engage in in terms of extracurriculars? Are there other variables that you're looking at?

Jim: Certainly not income.

[laughter]

Jim: That still surprises me. That aside, no, none of the things that we're talking about are potential careers, I don't think. If it is, let's say something like ballet, the older one takes ballet. If it's something that she wants to make a career out of, she's going to do that. That's something that she's going to drive. She's going to be the one that's going to be the motivator to get that done. We're not certainly investing in a career as far as the ballet lessons here.

I think my philosophy, the closest that I can get is I might encourage them to pick up women's lacrosse in high school, maybe, because it seems like there's some low-hanging scholarships for that kind of sports, or women's soccer, but that's about as close as I can get to monetizing these extracurricular activities. For the most part, we talked about the language, things like language and physical education, body movement. Then things that are entertaining, music. Music is like language. You learn it in young age, you have it for the rest of your life. I would prioritize those things that are best and easiest to learn when you are young when your child, when they're children. Then the things that they enjoy, anything that is going to give them joy. Obviously, if they like it, they're going to be better at it. If they're better at it, they're going to like it more, it's going to give them self-esteem, they'll be excited about it. I'm really letting them drive the sorts of activities that we're doing. I guess I want to talk about education, early childhood education, I guess we'll call it the extracurricular stuff.

There's this whole-body principle or the whole person principle, some music, some liberal arts kind of stuff, some physical education, academics, obviously, there's anything that we can do to contribute that old person development, I think, is the direction that I want to go.

Dave: On our end, I think we thought about it similarly. I think, first of all, originally when we were starting to think about extracurriculars when she was younger, wanted to keep the activities pretty tight, maybe once or twice a week. As she had started to-- She grows, she just becomes more capable and she has more interest. I would say, starting last year, we started to pivot to opening things up. Last year, my big feeling was that now is the time to explore a bunch of different things and basically just shotgun a bunch of things that she's interested in.

Then see which ones she and then for her to-- If she likes it, to continue down a path to gain mastery or some level of just more involvement in that particular extracurricular. I will say that I think part of that is because in the school right now, we don't have homework. Obviously, adding the homework becomes a lot different. Last year, your school is over, whatever, 3:15, there's plenty of time to fit in some extracurricular before dinner and then still being able to get to sleep at a reasonable hour.

I think that as homework gets introduced next year, I think that's something that we're going to have to really think about. As you mentioned, there's a ton of research actually, about the importance of unstructured playtime. We don't want to get her into a situation where it's just it's homework activity, go to sleep. That's not a fun life. At this age, that's way too much stress to be putting on a kid. They should be having more fun than that.

I think, again, we'll have to see how things change next year, where we're really, I think, have to start making some tougher decisions about what kinds of things we want to be doing. Like you, I don't think we're necessarily focused on-- What we're certainly not focused on, hey, this is going to become a job for her in the future. I think, for the most part, we're not really focused on extracurriculars that will advance her academics, at least not right now, with maybe one exception.

The way that we broken down the general extracurriculars that we look at are life skills, which I guess is maybe similar to the whole body concept in terms of what we've actually chosen, which is swimming. My wife, she swims, she comes from a tropical country, whenever we go, there [unintelligible 00:13:17] is going to swim, it just it is what it is. That's a life skill, she needs to learn how to do that. Language class, we mentioned in the podcast about bilingualism, my wife speaks a different language.

It's important for her, our daughter and our son too just to be able to learn properly how to read and write and all that stuff. Self-defiance, which I think is a life skill. I guess the one caveat or the one exception to this academic thing is right now our daughter's in a math class that it's a Japanese Abacus class. Initially, they start learning to use the abacus for mental math and it will eventually progress to the point where you can do complicated mental math, multiplication, division, all sorts of crazy stuff with six figures, seven figures.

You could do that all in your head, right. Those are the life skills. Then the other group of things that we have are interest-based, the things that she is interested in. Chorus, ballet, she was doing sewing class for a while. We have one rule as it relates to extracurriculars, which is that you cannot quit because it gets harder. You have to play it out. I think that it was really interesting to see that in play because I had set that up early on.

One of the very first extracurriculars that she did was ice skating because one of her friends was doing it. We went ice skating and she enjoyed it. I said, "Look, when we start this, you can't quit just because it gets harder." Where I really saw that come through was she was in ice skating and jujitsu at the same time and she had actually graduated levels in both of those classes within two weeks of each other. The increase in difficulty between each level was substantial.

I think that having one class jump a level is already difficult enough, but to have then the second one within two weeks and that really, really substantial jump. I was really proud of the way that she handled that because she never-- It was hard, you can see it. She wasn't into it, but she did it. I will say, at the beginning of jujitsu, there was some cajoling, but that she knew that this is just something you have to do and at least for ice skating, hey, it got harder, you can't just quit because it's tough.

Hopefully, at least that teach that grit. At least we're using these as a way to impart or reinforce some other life skills. That's how we look at it. I'm curious, you were talking about, I think on the types of activities that you're doing that you-- I think you said you introduce your daughter to some of those and then some of them she picks, is that right? You do a little bit of combination of I think this would be interesting for you and then your daughter comes to you with other things that she wants to do.

Jim: Yes. I think most of what we've done is just introducing these subjects or introducing these activities to her and the ballet, she started very young. I don't even think she really had a choice in that. I don't recall why there was such a priority at such young age. You know what it was, is that we just didn't really have any understanding about how old she was, she's probably 18 months where she's ready for ballet.

[laughter]

Now that we've got a toddler, we had a toddler, we could see that maybe we were being a little aggressive on that timetable, but now she enjoyed it, which is why we've kept it up. Similar to your daughter's experience, we have days when she doesn't want to go, she doesn't want to get on her clothes, she doesn't want-- Whatever it is that we're doing, she just doesn't want to do it, drags her feet. Our conversation is, “You don't want to do this, but you know what you signed up for it. The time to have that conversation is before we enroll for the semester or whatever it is.

Now that you're here, do it, you know, do the best you can.” Usually, she gets started and everything is fine. To your point about your daughter's experience about the level up, one of the things that I really enjoy seeing in the extracurricular activities is seeing her get-- the older one, in particular, seeing her get much better at-- She's on course, you get better at singing or get better at her ballet, swimming back when we did swimming and that gives them a lot of self-esteem.

Not only is it something that they enjoy doing, but it gives them that self-esteem and then they're good at it and it feels good. I empathize with your daughter to level up in two different activities the same time. It's miserable not to be good at something for a while, particularly two things at the same time. The things that we've got, mostly we introduce the and other than, like you say, the cajoling, I'm not going to force them to do anything. I want them to join, I want them to be the ones that are driving those activities.

Yes, I can't think of anything. Here's an example, I started to introduce this, again, right before COVID started, we were going to do some rock climbing at a rock-climbing gym. That's something that she had maybe seen at a birthday party, I think, was interested in, kind of not, something that I had done just many years ago. I wanted to, that's something that I would have introduced and probably would have stayed with her for maybe two or three times just because he's got to get good enough to enjoy it.

Then once she enjoys it, then she can decide is that something she still wants to do or not. What you're describing, it's really just like a cafe model. We've got a whole bunch of things. Try them out. You want to, I'll let you, you want to pick some things, great. Want to do some things, try it out and we'll see what works.

Dave: Yes. I was interested because you brought up the whole-- I guess, I did and then you played off the concept of that comfort level with the awkwardness, but yes, wanting to be master of something. It's really interesting because as they switch levels, you can see the level of discomfort they have, where they've gone from a class, where they have mastery of that level and then the [unintelligible 00:19:22] it's super uncomfortable to get into the next level and then to be like, "I can't do any of this."

It feels so much safer to let me just go back to the level I was at because I knew how to do everything and I excelled at that, but yes, that level of pushing through that discomfort and giving them the confidence to know that everybody has to start somewhere and remember that when you started ice skating, you couldn't even stand up. Then you got to the end of this class where you could skate forward and then you got to the end of the class, where you could skate backwards and so on and so forth. I think that's also I guess maybe the other thing that they can take away from extracurriculars, are those other other soft skills, but those other life skills that a lot of these things allow you to impart just through the process of having the extracurriculars.

Jim: There's something about learning to fail or just being bad at something. I was remembering when we were, maybe it was we ice skated maybe up in the mountains, I think the older one had some ski lessons and at first, she fell down a lot. I just tell him you're doing it perfectly. That's exactly what you do when you're learning something, is that you got to fall down and figure out how to do it. I'm not exactly sure what that is. I don't know if it's the perseverance thing or if-- I want them to be comfortable failing, that's how you learn, right?

Dave: Yes, it's funny we're having this conversation now because we're working on instilling a growth mindset in our daughter. This concept that it's really about what you learned from the experience and not necessarily the outcome, because if you always focused on the outcome, then you don't push yourself to ever do anything because there's always that risk of failure, but if you're comfortable with saying the goal is understanding the process of learning from that and if you can take pleasure in that process that you're going to have better outcomes at everything you do.

Yes, I think that's maybe another thing, I guess another way, and I hadn't thought about it and if you said it that's yet another way because right now what we're trying to do is in part a lot of that and just how we talk to our daughter and some books that we have about perseverance and things like that but I hadn't really thought about it in terms of, “Hey, remember when you started swimming. You could only make it like, you barely stick your head in the water and now you can swim the length of the pool or the width of the pool without coming up for air,” that reminding her about that and all the work that it took to get there and to save her, that accomplishment when you get there is I think so important.

Again, it is something that I think we forget to do along the way that I should start being more proactive as we reintegrate into our extracurriculars, hopefully, there'll be coming up soon.

Jim: You're hitting on a key part of it and we'll just call it character building. It's learning how to be miserable at something or not good at it, and then learning how to be better. That look back period that you're describing is really powerful, not only is it self-esteem, but it helps build confidence that ,yes, look it out for and you came, you're totally capable of doing it and hopefully that lesson sticks for other things.

Dave: When did your kids start with extracurriculars and what was the impetus for getting them involved?

Jim: Like I said, the seven-year-old, we started her in ballet really young, maybe it wasn't 18 months. Maybe it was two years or three years or something like that, at one of the local neighborhood schools that are daycare ballet classes, but it is something that she enjoyed and so we kept it up. Then the younger one, in watching her older sister do the ballet, she's got a strong interest in it. Unfortunately, just when she was getting into the classes, we had the COVID.

We finally got her into the class that has got the studio with the mirrors and the par and all that, so she's missing out on that. Then for swimming, I think there were five and three when we started and they learned really quickly and they picked it up. Again, I was really motivated to do that because they fall in the pool, at least they'll have a fighting chance of making it to the side. It was a really like a safety issue for me but it's something that they really enjoy doing. Then the chorus we started in first grade.

My daughter was five or six, probably six years old. Then the younger one, she's really getting the raw deal with COVID just as she's coming to that age where she's got enough control over her motor skills or gross motor skills and has this attention span that she could do some of those activities, she's just been deprived of them, unfortunately.

I am looking forward for it to post-COVID for her and I think ballet is probably something she's going to take. She's got that interest, definitely go back to swimming and then like her sister, she does a lot of singing, a lot of impromptu singing, dancing. Maybe we could get her into some activity that way, but again, it's the things that I've observed in her that she does, or that she's good at, or that she enjoys doing, how do we channel that into something similar for an activity?

Dave: For us, we started with some after-school activities in about pre-K four. There were dance and movement classes offered not by the school, but after-school programs so we could just extend the school day. It's like a childcare thing so it was helpful for us and there was some science classes. I think we started our first outside school activity was ice skating.

That was maybe pre-K four, I think when we started that. And then I guess the next couple dominoes that fell were swimming and ballet, I think. The impetus for us was that our daughter seemed ready and we were mentally ready. I remember when we started in pre-K three already, it was like everybody was doing all these extracurricular activities, which was nuts. My wife was like, “Are we bad parents? What's happening here?”

Jim: Yes, we had the same conversation.

Dave: I just remember telling him, I was like, “Look, we don't need to keep up with the Joneses here. When we're ready and when she's ready, I think we'll know it.” That came like a year later, but I remember in pre-K three, we had friends that were like taking their kids, they were getting ski lessons and we were three, four hours away from the mountain, it's not like it's something in our backyard. These parents were devoted to taking their kid out skiing, whatever multiple times a month.

I'm like, “Whoa, we're not anywhere there yet,” but it really felt like there was this pressure, as you could see everybody doing all this stuff. We were literally like, “Wait a minute, are we the bad parents here? What's going on?” Again, I don't know if that's, again, a cultural thing, whether that's just all of a sudden that the norms have changed where there's just this pressure for everybody to do a bunch of stuff, but I feel good that we at least held off for a year, we felt pressured, but that's not why we started doing extracurriculars.

It just felt like it was the right time to introduce some of those things. She certainly enjoyed ice skating. We did that for almost a year, that felt right at that time and because she had a friend in there too, it just a natural extension of maintaining the relationship outside of school, which was, I think, interesting and important to see how that would work out, when they were younger. Pre-COVID, it sounds like-- actually maybe run down your schedule pre-COVID. You were in swimming and ballet, how often were you guys doing activities and chorus and all this stuff?

Jim: I think that I've been saying that we'd really not doing a lot, but you just asked that question and yes, we had a pretty busy schedule. I don't know if all these activities overlapped at the same time. They probably did for some time, but it was chorus afterschool on Mondays. I don't think there was anything on Tuesday, Wednesday, so of course after school, on Thursday, Friday night swim lessons, Saturday morning ballet for one of the daughters, Sunday morning ballet for the other daughter.

Then you add in a couple of birthday parties and some play dates on the weekends and it's a pretty full schedule. After-school, I think that you were describing the same thing through the school program where they had gymnastics class and things like that. Those were, as you said, childcare things that they could do that was entertaining for childcare rather than extracurricular activities that were the main focus. Of course, a couple of days and then there's the weekends with the ballet and swimming that were pretty stacked.

Dave: On our end, similar to you guys with the younger one, so pre-COVID, our youngest were, what? Three going on four at that point. At least for the boy, unfortunately he was in swim class, but that was it. Most of what the schedule was for our daughter. As I alluded to, at the beginning of the program, she was pretty scheduled.

Actually, I would say maybe a month or two before COVID, she came to me and said, “I feel like I have too much stuff going on.” I appreciate the awareness for her to say, “Hey, I feel like I got too much going on. I want to start pairing this thing back.” COVID broke that entirely up for us, but she was starting to get to a point where I was becoming a lot. She was scheduled six days a week, Monday we had jiu-jitsu life skills so eventually he's going to join that. Tuesday, both kids swam.

That was the one activity that he had where he was in the pool, but he was in the pool maybe I think it's less than started, maybe only six months before everything got locked down and we haven't been back to the pool since. Wednesday, we had the math, the Abacus class, which our son will join eventually. Thursday was girl’s course. Friday was off finally, and then Saturday, she had language class, which she eventually joined, Sunday was ballet, which she no longer wants to do. At least that opens things up and then actually over the summer, I think, I can't remember exactly when it was last maybe, no, it was after school. She was in sewing classes, there was stuff all over the place. I can certainly see how she was getting over-scheduled and also just, from the parents ‘perspective, constantly shuttling kids back and forth was becoming difficult.

Jim: It’s a lot of time.

Dave. My schedule at the time allowed me some flexibility because also she had jiu-jitsu twice a week for some portion of that, which then took us almost I think, seven days a week for a little while. I had a scheduled, it allowed for some flexibility for me to take her to jiu-jitsu. I don't have that flexibility anymore. Again, things are going to be different posts. What are you guys doing now, given all of the restrictions that we still have with COVID?

Jim: Unfortunately, it's just the activities that have gone virtual. Both the chorus and ballet, they have the virtual, I don't know what you call it, class sessions, I guess. Afterschool in the weekdays and then for the weekend, and that's pretty much it. I know that there was some other kids in the neighborhood that are doing soccer, which I think outdoor soccer seems an okay thing for the COVID, but we don't have any of those activities and no in-person extracurricular activities now.

Dave: Yes, same for us. We're doing language class and the math class. Actually, the sewing class was not virtual. It was in-person, but they had split the class up. Some kids actually sewed outside. They brought an extension cord just wrapped around the building and they set-up a tent outside and enclosed it. That worked out pretty well and some kids were inside, but they had the doors open and they had the air purifiers and everybody had to wear masks and when they did eat lunch, because it was, almost a full-day camp, everybody would eat outside. It felt pretty safe based on everything we knew at that point in time but that's the only thing that we had done in-person. Before we signed up for that, we talked to the owner about what she was planning to do to keep everybody safe and it felt pretty safe to do that.

I'm curious with all the things that you guys did before, what are your plans relative to returning to the extracurricular activities and are there things that you were doing before that with COVID you're like, ah, it just doesn't feel like we're going to go back to that. How are you guys thinking about that now?

Jim: Swim lessons are the one that gives me pause because that, even in the best of times, that felt like a little Petri dish, just wet, lots being in the pool but I think that's just the way that swimming goes. I do want both of them to be in in-person activities because the things that we're talking about are the things about the activities themselves, singing music, physical education, they’re not use body, but there's a whole other facet to that and that's the social interaction.

I think the fact that the older ones kept up with those two activities, despite that, I think speaks pretty highly to our interest in those subjects, because of that's all it is. It's pure distilled, the very little social interaction. You're not talking with your friends or hanging on a break and things like that to see them at the pickup and drop off. As soon as we can get them back into the in-person activities, I'd like to do that. I think even with swimming, I think any of those activities are going to be structured in a way that will be safe and hygienic and have all the protocols that we need for the time being.

Dave: I think we're really going to have to rethink a lot of our activities and see where we are relative to vaccines and spreads. I think the Moderna looks like they might have early approval for, or they're applying for approval for up to 12, 12 and above, but our kids they're still not in that group. Like you, the pool feels like the perfect environment for an airborne virus. It's where wet, it’s humid.

Jim: Totally, yes. It's where you get the flu?

Dave: Yes, that field, and then you got the shout, no mask, it feels like if you had to design the perfect environment for a virus, swimming pool is it, the indoor swimming pool is it. I don't know. That being said, I know that there's some indoor pools that have been open for a while and the fact that they haven't shut down does seem to indicate that people are getting sick, because otherwise that pool would been shut down. I don't know how much of the pool part is legitimate science or if that's us as parents just going, ah, it just doesn't feel safe.

Jim: I don't know. Maybe it's a big chlorine fog that just takes care of everything.

Dave: Right. Yes, which would be great. The pool, and that is the one that more than anything she misses and our son does too, she'd been doing, I think four years she had been at the pool. That was really the longest tenure thing we have, I think. For her to just cold turkey leave that was pretty rough. She still asks like, “When can I go back to the pool?” The answer right now is, “I don't know yet.” That's what we're going to have to think about, jiu-jitsu, obviously it's all grappling.

It's not like some other martial arts where you can practice your forms, jiu-jitsu you're in somebodies face. That one also doesn't feel like we're necessarily going to be going to that one anytime soon but I would like to get her back to that. Then chorus, I like what you said about how right now chorus and ballet for your daughter really, the just distilled essence of what it is. I think that's why my daughter doesn't like it. It’s why she didn't come back this year because last year when they moved to virtual, she really, really struggled with it. She really just did not like singing. Part of it too is, you couldn't hear other people like [crosstalk], sing it's all about not-

Jim: It's not part of a chorus. It's just a whole bunch of soloists.

Dave: Soloists sing at the same time without being able to hear each other. I think that it does really take away from the experience. I can't blame her for that. I'm unclear if we're going to restart that in the fall, right now we're keeping our options open. I signed her up to re-enter, but we're going to wait probably a few months to see where everything goes, because also, it's not even clear to me what the chorus will open up for in-person also. I think for us, it's like will the course open up in person. If they do, do we feel comfortable going back when that was clearly a transmission activity for COVID, and especially if the if the kids don't have a vaccine yet.

I think that's probably the one that we're really going to be most reactive to whereas I think the other two, we can say-- I think the pool, we can make a decision before we have to get to that point. At this point, I don't feel like jiu-jitsu is going to come back anytime soon.

Jim: That's close quarters.

Dave: We'll have to see. Of all the things that your daughters have done, is there anything that you have always wanted them to do? Whether or not they're doing it now, but I go back to that question about were the things you thought, hey, my daughter's temperament or her interests, I think she would be really interested in X? Whether or not you've actually done it, or it's still something that she needs to be a little bit older for whatever reason you haven't started yet.

Jim: That's a good question because the singing and the dancing, I think are in my daughters, maybe it's innate in every kid, but those are things that I saw they really enjoyed and there was structured ways to continue doing that, because I took this question in a different way. I thought, what are the things that I really want them to do? Totally selfish.

What are the activities that I like to do? Can I get them to do that too so I can do it with them? Probably not, I don't know if my daughters are going to be really excited about fishing or playing golf or whatever, and if they are, I'll take them to do those activities. As far as the things that they are doing, I think that we've identified at least the germ of those things and the essence of those things that then we can push that into structured activities and have them encouraged in that way.

Dave: I am interested in what you were saying about the kinds of activities that you're interested in, because I have always been like, I can't wait till my daughter's old enough so that I can do X with her. You mentioned like fishing and golf, have you started to plant seeds in their minds about that or expose them to any-- have you started to lay the groundwork? Whether it's mini golf or just getting out in a boat or anything like that yet?

Jim: We did some fishing when we were camping and they did really enjoy it. It is fun, particularly where we went, they stock the river. It's like fish in a barrel, just stand in river, throw your hook in there. They enjoyed that. They didn't quite enjoy having the fish for dinner, but they'd certainly enjoyed the fishing activity. With golf, I don't think they really understand what we did do some mini golfing. They didn't really get it at all, but I think I've watched golf on TV once or twice, so they know what it is. I think that's something that they're going to have to, it was probably the older one, she's probably going to have to make the decision whether or not she wants to do it and if she does, I'd be glad to do it. I know that there's something about the swing and the focus and the something about that activity, it's supposed to be good for children, particularly children that have hyper activity, I guess, that help them to focus on the complex body movement. It's supposed to be good for their mental development, but that's neither here nor there. If they show an interest in it, that's great. Otherwise then, I'll keep doing what they want to do. I did ballet with my daughter the other day. She's the one that's choosing the activities that we're going to do.

Dave: I have always wanted to get my daughter into photography. One of the early breadcrumbs that I threw out there was I got her a Polaroid camera, because I figured there's nothing like having the tangible photol. Yes, you can take a picture on a digital camera, but I think there's still something different about having a tangible photo that you can touch and share with your friends. I'm hoping that at some point-- so when we go on vacation, sometimes I'll be like, “Hey, do you want to bring the camera?” She won't necessarily remember to bring it proactively, but if I ask, she'd be like, “Oh, yes.” She'll take pictures and some of it goes to waste, but that's okay because as long as she's taking pictures, I'm fine with that.

I hope actually that's one thing that I hope to get them involved in the other super random thing that I've always wanted to do. This is one thing I've wanted to do myself as I've always been interested in archery and I've never really had the chance to do it. I've taken a few classes here and there. I got as far as like looking at what the options are, where we are this is not a big area for like archery ranges and stuff like that. There's-- I don't know if it's a course or a range or whatever, but it's an archery place where they have the targets are dinosaurs and you just follow the course along and whatever, there's a T-Rex to shoot at velociraptor to shoot at.

I always thought that would just be a fun thing to do with the kids. You get a little bit of air, you get a little bit of a hiking, and then you go do your archery. It's a weird thing, but I've always wanted to do that. Unclear if that'll ever happen, but-

Jim: Scholarship activity or that's a scholarship opportunity. How many female archer, what do you call them archers? How many female artists archers? There's got to be a scholarship out there somewhere.

Dave: It's funny because I also watch it at the Olympics and the archers are always older than those are the ones that I feel like, you know what? I could pick this thing up and one day I could be an Olympic train, hard enough I could do it.

Jim: Springs the turtle. You can still be an Olympic athlete.

Dave: The dream is not yet over. I guess those are the things that I would love to do with my kids. I think the photography possible, I think that our tree is, is less possible, but I don't know, hope springs eternal and maybe we'll start with Marietta and we'll move on to Katniss. I guess the new Hawkeye Disney plus show is with Hailee Steinfeld. There's another strong female archer for my daughter to follow in footsteps. In terms of the things that I always have thought that she would like, and again, most of this has focused on the daughter because our son's not old enough yet, but I think the sewing class was always something.

I remember meeting the sewing instructor actually in pre-K three at one of these open house events for after school activities. I thought at three, I bet she would like this and it took a few years for me to get around to it, but she did enjoy the sewing class. She took a couple of those. She now seems to be a little bit less interested. At least for the time, at that initial phase it did, she was really into it. She made she made, I think three garments. She made a couple of dresses and a couple of skirts. I think that was good for her. I always wanted her to be in the Girl Scouts just from a leadership perspective, but I just don't feel like that's ever going to fit in the schedule given all the requirements that they have.

Then I wanted her to be in girl's chorus because I was in boys course. I thought it was a great experience and she was doing that and hip-hop. I really think that she would like hip hop. She loves to dance. She likes to sing. I guess a lot of kids all kids like to dance and sing, but I feel like hip hop in particular a few years ago I was into what was the, there's a Fox reality, So You Think You Can Dance and I used to watch that. I used to watch that with her actually, some of the clips because they have just the clips without all the story of the training that you can watch online and she really enjoyed those.

I think that's one that at some point I might try and do with her, which I guess is here's another question I have for you. Is there anything in particular that your child has expressed an interest, like a particular interest in that you haven't yet done for whatever reason? Again, they're not old enough or you just haven't gotten around to it because the schedule has been too packed.

Jim: The older one really wants to play basketball. She wants to play basketball and she wants to do piano. I think piano, particularly during COVID is the more likely of the two, but right now she's doing chorus and I feel like that's enough music for one week. Maybe when the chorus ends, maybe we'll get her signed up on piano lessons. That is something that she identified that she wants to do. Then basketball, I'm having a hard time figuring out how to encourage that. We live in a condo, we don't really have a place to put a basketball hoop because I think at her age, she needs like the mini hoop with the mineral rather than the full-sized ball. I got to figure out how to encourage that and then we'll find a class or a team camp sooner or later. Let her try it out that way.

Dave: Our daughter has always wanted to do rock climbing. I actually remember how long she's wanting to do it because she asked me when she was four. I remember that because I looked how old she needed to be. She wasn't old enough yet. She was counting down the days and a month until she turned five, which is when she could start the classes. Then she turned five and all of a sudden, we had all of these classes it was impossible to find a class with a schedule that we could fit. Of course, now that feels like a super safe concept. I've actually looked, we're pivoting to summertime activities and summer camps and stuff like that. I'm like, hey man, rock climbing feels like that's going to be safe.

Unfortunately right now all of the gyms are not-- all of their kids' classes are canceled for the summer, at least for right now. That just could be a function of, , we had just started come out of some of the more intensive COVID stuff. I wonder if, as we get a little bit close to summer, they'll radio evaluate that and bring some of those classes back. We're going on what four years that she's been wanting to do. I was just talking to her a couple of days ago, because again, as we're thinking about summer activities and, “Are you still interested in rock climbing?” She's like, “Yes, absolutely.” I think that was a good one just because there's a lot of like conquer your fear, going vertical is that is not an easy thing to do. We might start it with bouldering, which my understanding is like bouldering is like lateral whereas climbing is vertical.

Jim: You don't get more than three feet off the ground.

Dave: I think that-- I like the strategic element of trying to understanding your body and how that's going to work. Can I reach this thing or am I going to fall? All of those things that are going on in your head, I think that's an interesting way of that mind, body connection and seeing that in real life, which I think will be interesting. That's something that I think we're going to try. Another thing that I've really always been interested in, and I'm not clear if our daughter will be interested in it, but I think 3D printing. Certainly, as it's becoming more mass market, but to be able to take an idea that you have in your head and turn it into something physical, or even say like, my son is all about Lego right now.

If you wanted like to design a specific piece, because he's all-- what I find really interesting about our son is he can spend like an hour just looking through the Lego instruction, like the build manuals and he'll just sit there and read through them. It's interesting to see just the other day he built an airplane with a-- he was using like a car base to build his airplane. I'm like, I never would've thought of that because we have our mental models. That's a car base. How, why would you-- I'm really interested to see if 3D printing would be interesting for them. Again, that creative process of here's something that was in your head that now all of a sudden is this tangible thing that is real to everybody.

I think it's an interesting way to exert your creativity. You can also draw. There's other ways of taking that thing that's in your head and making it real. I'm curious to see if that would work in and there are more and more 3D printers. I just saw one that in particular is geared towards children of our children's age. That's another thing that I think our son in particular would be interested in and would be something I'd like to try. As the kids get older too, I'm keeping tabs on, what the city meal programs are out there and where she might match up. Another one that I'm curious if she would be interested in is woodworking. She really enjoys making things with her hands. She hasn't necessarily expressed a particular interest in it but it does marry a bunch of things that she already likes to do and maybe just opens her up to a new avenue, a new method of doing those things. I think that'll be interesting as they get older and as they start showing interest in maybe more complicated or obscure things like I'll say archery, hopefully, right? [laugh] I keep pushing this is this as long as I can. We'll see, maybe we'll go to the Olympics together as a father-

Jim: Father, daughter

Dave: -and child team-

Jim: -archery team.

Dave: Right, father, daughter, Father, Son, team, or maybe the next time you see us, will be on The Today Show because it's yes, the father and his two children are in the Olympics.

Jim: Where did the interest come for you with archery?

Dave: Archery, I have no idea. My only real experience with archery was at summer camp when I was, I don't know, in middle school. I just thought it was so cool. I never did anything with it. That is actually one thing I regretted because where we live, it's not a lot of archery opportunities. There's not a lot of classes even, there's actually nowhere in the city that teaches archery. There's two different types of bows, and the closest place is the next city over and it's not the one that I want to do. Actually, that's one thing-- I regret when I was younger, but on my own.

I had some disposable income, in my 20s that I didn't just go and take classes, because I had no responsibilities at that point in time. Now it's impossible, but it's something that I've always been interested. I watch YouTube videos on how to shoot and what the proper form is, but I don't have a bow. [laugh] [unintelligible 00:52:12] stuff. I don't know. Maybe one day, I might have to wait till the kids are out of the house.

Jim: Just do it. Chase your dreams.

Dave: Yes. Absolutely.

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Jim: There's no time like the present.

Dave: Great. Look, we hope you found today's episode informative. If you'd to support the podcast and hear more discussions around fatherhood, please subscribe, drop us a review. You got any questions hit us up on the Facebook page facebook.com/papaestfatigue. That's P-A-P-A-E-S-T-F-A-T-I-G-U-E. Thanks for listening.